7110

The problem is that many of the people who were bitter about brexit are being radicalised by the canary and similar, and social media. It’s not just a few thousand maniacs on Twitter, they are the tip of the iceberg.

Having had some exposure to these people, otherwise reasonable folks who are now trained to suspend all critical faculties when thinking about politics. I find it very very scary.

I don’t know to what extent the same thing is going on on the right. But the Tory leadership isn’t exactly setting a good example.

7111

I definitely don’t see the same level of vitriol from the right as I do from the left. Not that I’m saying the right isn’t guilty of this too - just that anecdotally it’s more prevalent on the left. I think this stems from the right viewing the left as being wrong where as the left tend to view the right as evil.

Despite the bitterness I still remain optimistic. Reading/listening to political academics has made me more hopeful. There are lots of really smart, insightful people (on both the left/right) and I’ve found their measured perspective helpful.

We’ve been through such political realignments before and though it might take some time (years), things should cool. I think we’re already beginning to see the start of this with Brexit fatigue. Also, our political system, although sorely tested at the moment is a system that (over time) is conducive for compromise. Hopefully society will also become better adjusted to the social media age too (and we might be seeing the first inklings of this with the concerns over fake news).

7112

Johnsons history is being put under the spotlight

For a “centrist” he sure spent alot of time publishing far right hate screeds.

7113

Ugh. It surprises me that editor after editor of the spectator has tolerated some truly extreme figures (Rod Liddle being the most recent example). I do wonder what is driving it, as most of the editors would describe themselves as center-right. While I greatly enjoy a lot of their output there is something deeply rotten there. None of this exonerate Johnson of course - he was clearly complicit.

7114

Right-wing populism (or Populist Nationalism, if you prefer) is usually considered far-right because it appeals to most of the same socio-cultural dimensions as other far-right movements: specifically nationalism, ethnocentrism, and anti-elitism.

It scales back on the overt laissez-faire capitalism of other far-right movements (though in practice, the end result tend to be similar), because tax cuts for the wealthy tend to not play well with the financially hard-pressed voters that right-wing populists need to appeal to. This isn’t really rocket science - right-wing populist parties in Europe created the playbook for this decades ago, and parties like Fidesz, PIS, Front National, SverigeDemokraterne et al have refined that playbook to a fine art. BJ is walking along a very well-worn path - pretending that it isn’t there, won’t make it go away.

Also - the “other side is condescending/people are angry/threated” is pretty much the text-book populist excuse for justifying a vote for racists and nationalists. It’s been trotted out with depressing regularity every single time a right-wing populist movement has success - and it’s equally unconvincing every time.

There is indeed a metamorphosis underway way, but it has been underway for several years now, and will be completed during this election - and that is the transformation of the Conservative party into a full-on Populist-Nationalist party. The problem for the UK is that the party on the Left, is similarly in the process of transforming into a Left-Wing Populist party - and FPTP makes it untenable for many/most to vote for alternatives.

The idea that things will be “less bitter” after the election is hopelessly optimistic. This election doesn’t resolve Brexit - even in the best case, what BJ’s “deal” has done is to push the no-deal precipice out to December 2020. So regardless of the election result, the next 12 months will repeat the pattern of the past three years, with the spectre of a no-deal (WTO rules) Brexit continuing to hang over the British economy throughout 2020 and most likely beyond. The likelihood of a comprehensive free trade agreement being concluded in a year is… literally zero. No matter what promises BJ makes and people are stupid enough to believe, a trade agreement requires both sides to agree, and BJ is not going to have any better luck with that than May did. Unless he rolls over, of course, as he did on the Brexit deal - but that will probably not play well with the hard-line wing of his own party - a hard-liine wing strengthened by this election. So yeah … not happening. Even if politicians won’t continue to use Brexit to whip up their base - which they will, of course - people will continue being bitter, because the issue will continue to loom over the British politics and economy for the foreseeable future.

7115

I mean, that is my belief too but very weakly held.

I think the biggest difference is the fact that this stuff on the far left is all pretty much unified and coordinated under the momentum banner. You get the same message from so many different people across social media that it creates the illusion of consensus, taking the same line Corbyn does - just more extreme. And that illusion of consensus has network effects, emboldening the extremists further and making disagreeing with them or criticising Labour have clear immediate social consequences.

Although a lot of @pwk has linked about Johnson is deeply fucking concerning, and reinforces my decision never to vote Tory while he is leader, but to my knowledge he simply doesn’t have the same dedicated extremist support network Corbyn does. There isn’t the same critical mass to create the illusion of social consensus.

When Farage was higher profile I think he definately was having a similar catalysing effect on the far-right.

I might be way off base with this - I really don’t have much of a window into what right social media looks like. But social media in the 20-30 university educated group is fucking terrifying if you think Corbyn is a dangerous and dishonest figure.

[And of course there are plenty of leftist campaigners who are not part of this - I’d describe @pwk as far left but not as an extremist, for example. We need better language for this.]

7116

I’d say more radical left centre. Far left for me is Marxism/Communism/etc and my career in City finance is incompatibilitle with that faction. The radical bit is mainly around protest/anger/direct activism.

7117

We should probably start making predictions on when the request to extend the transition period will happen.
(Given our usual promptness in such things, probably a few days before it ends.)

7118

Not legally possible (assuming the Johnson agreement or equivalent passes). The deadline for extension to be agreed is six months before the transition ends.

7119

I think our difference in opinion stems from the problem that the term far-right is too loosely defined. Since it’s also commonly used to describe fascism or racist ideologies and as I don’t consider euroscepticism to be racist or indeed solely right-wing I don’t believe it is a valid description of the Tory party as a whole or their policy on Brexit.

To clarify I’m under no illusion that this will happen quickly. I think it will take a long time for the current levels of political bitterness to subside. Perhaps a decade or more - only that I’m opitmistic that it will eventually do so. We’ve been through political realignments before and come out the other side successfully.

7120

What would change your mind?

7121

These demonstrate the culture within the Tories.

7122

Also this from yesterday.

Disclosure - I work with Shazia.

7123

There are far too many to go through them all but I’ll just take the first one as I read about it this morning:
The “disgusting, racist remark” was:
“he’s talking through his turban”
However, this is an idiom: “he’s talking through his hat”. Commonly used to mean “he’s talking foolishness, nonsense or bluster”. Well, Dunne probably should have used the idiom in full and said hat rather than turban but I still don’t see how it can be considered racist.

EDIT:

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/talking-through-your-hat.html

7124

Don’t get me wrong. I’m sure there are racist individuals in the Tory party. As there are statistically in any large group of people. Perhaps even statistically more so in the Tory party than say the Lib Dems due to their center-right ideology. However, many of these incidents are also blown out of proportion such as the one I just posted about and/or inflated by political opponents as a form of political attack.

It’s one thing to say there are racist individuals within a party and another to classify the entire party as racist (indicating racist policy).

7125

Of course you don’t. That’s kind of the point.

7126

OK so wait…
You’re wearing a turban and I say to you, “stop talking out of your turban”. Are you telling me you believe that is racist?
I mean, you are wearing a turban. It is a hat. How is that racist?
In this instance hat/turban are interchangeable.
EDIT:
… although it is a slightly rude idiom :)
EDIT2:
… I can’t believe we’re discussing this issue again. I’m going to bow out now as I can see it’s futile.

7127

A couple of days ago someone brought a baby to the office, and she had refused to be held by an Asian lady, but quickly warmed to me. My wife had previously suggested that babies like me because I have big eyes. Well, I said “she likes me because I have big eyes”. And then a split second later, realized the asian lady might find the remark offensive. Was I being racist? No, but I felt abashed and chagrined at my lack of situational awareness (and later, my perpetuation of stupid old wives tales).

Show me the part where Boris feels any chagrin or abashment. Either he’s a racist, or an ignorant buffoon who can’t distinguish proper context (and you know, shouldn’t be a politician).

7128

The difference between us is that I wouldn’t have felt abashed or chagrined. There was no intention of racism. If one was perceived then I would have attempted to explain and perhaps apologize but I wouldn’t have felt bad about it. It was an honest mistake.

7129

Oh, that’s interesting. Presumably the UK and Europe could amend this, but it’s certainly a stumbling block. Hmm.