Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:23:41.071Z

scottagibson:

Honestly, that would look like perfectly normal politics. Like losing an election but deciding to campaign in the next one. Like trying to repeal a law that you voted against in the last session. Like trying to pass a law that was voted down in the last session,

The whole point of the eurosceptics is that the EU has allowed their political opponents to pass laws that cannot be repealed.

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T11:23:52.172Z

Here is some Trump-style winning for the UK;

twitter.com

Sam Coates Sky (SamCoatesSky)

NEW - Leaked Treasury document, here in full, which suggests potential checks on goods going to/ from NI under Boris Johnson’s brexit deal include: * GB to NI customs declarations (new) * NI to GB customs declarations * Rules of Origin for GB to NI * Regulatory checks GB to NI https://t.co/eJwCJuEqpl

10:22 AM - 6 Dec 2019 640 760

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T11:24:56.362Z

Aceris:

The whole point of the eurosceptics is that the EU has allowed their political opponents to pass laws that cannot be repealed.

Good for them, but how exactly does that relate to my criticism of your argument?

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:25:36.353Z

Sam_Jones:

That isn’t the argument I’m making - it is that the calls for a second referendum on the details are perfectly reasonable with such a marginal vote on such a broad and deep change.

I agree. It is reasonable. I now think we should have a second referendum. It’s still undemocratic.

Sam_Jones · 2019-12-06T11:28:40.070Z

Then I don’t understand what you mean. If a referendum is to be held - an act of direct democracy in itself - it must be legislated for by parliament. Where exactly is the lack of democracy?

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:29:21.730Z

scottagibson:

Good for them, but how exactly does that relate to my criticism of your argument?

Because it presents a clear double standard. Which is very clear to most of the people who voted leave, and many who voted remain.

I mean really we needed to put EU membership on a solid constitutional footing from the off so nonsense like the Lisbon ratification and ambiguous referendum couldn’t happen. But that’s hindsight talking.

wavey · 2019-12-06T11:30:48.965Z

Aceris:

I now think we should have a second referendum.

Will you be voting for a party that has that as their policy, then?

If you consider a second referendum undemocratic, I can’t imagine what you’d think about a straight-up revoke policy.

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:33:37.190Z

wavey:

Will you be voting for a party that has that as their policy, then?

Yes. (I think I’ve said so upthread?)

wavey:

If you consider a second referendum undemocratic, I can’t imagine what you’d think about a straight-up revoke policy.

I actually consider it not as bad. There is no hiding behind “letting the people have their say”. We all seem to agree the first referendum was a mistake, how will a second one be any better?

At least the LibDems are crystal clear about their intentions.

But they aren’t going to win.

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T11:36:53.620Z

Aceris:

Because it presents a clear double standard.

Ok, to be clear: You say that permitting the polity to undo a past act (new referendum) is undemocratic, and also prohibiting the polity to undo a past act is undemocratic. That’s…not consistent, right?

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:38:53.947Z

scottagibson:

Ok, to be clear: You say that permitting the polity to undo a past act (new referendum) is undemocratic, and also prohibiting the polity to undo a past act is undemocratic. That’s…not consistent, right?

In this context and my opinion, “undoing a past act” is to rejoin the EU after having left it.

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T11:43:23.299Z

Aceris:

In this context and my opinion, “undoing a past act” is to rejoin the EU after having left it.

Well, so what? You’re making contradictory arguments based on different examples, so it doesn’t really seem like the principle you’re calling it. It could be some other principle, I suppose, but it isn’t the one you’re touting.

Fifth_Fret · 2019-12-06T11:44:05.525Z

Aceris:

And the elected body gets to stay in power for the appointed length of time.

So calling this general election early is also harmful to democracy?

There’s also the argument that if the Liberal Democrats were elected on a campaign to cancel Brexit, maybe leaving the EU after the referendum wasn’t the democratic expectation after all?

(Appealing to the “democratic expectation” has a bit of a “will of the people” parallel to it.)

Aceris:

And why claiming that it is democratic is toxic.

We’re certainly in agreement that injecting referendums into our system causes no end of trouble. I’m more than a little concerned a second referendum would make it worse.

But, I guess none of our disagreement here really matters if the polling turns out right. I’m more pessimistic than ever about the next few years of this country’s politics.

Aceris · 2019-12-06T11:50:34.761Z

Fifth_Fret:

(Appealing to the “democratic expectation” has a bit of a “will of the people” parallel to it.)

It’s not so much the will of the people as the consent of the governed. What I am saying is that 2nd ref/revoke has a price in terms of democratic legitimacy, and we would do better to acknowledge that and try to deal with the problems it will cause rather than construct selective and self-serving arguments why something that was self-evident to Paddy Ashdown before the results came out should suddenly not be the case.

Because otherwise even if we do get a 2nd ref and win it we will have to deal with a tory/ERG/Brexit party, fully radicalised and united, riding a wave of anger in 5 years (or maybe less) time.

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T12:05:03.717Z

Aceris:

Because otherwise even if we do get a 2nd ref and win it we will have to deal with a tory/ERG/Brexit party, fully radicalised and united, riding a wave of anger…

Isn’t that what you’re dealing with now?

Fifth_Fret · 2019-12-06T13:06:14.723Z

Aceris:

What I am saying is that 2nd ref/revoke has a price in terms of democratic legitimacy, and we would do better to acknowledge that and try to deal with the problems it will cause…

Yes. Okay, that’s fair. It doesn’t even matter what the democratic legitimacy is - people have got a perception, and that has to be properly accounted for.

We’re woefully short of politicians willing to take the time to persuade, rather than throw out sound bites. You and I have had a political discussion far deeper than any I’ve ever heard a politician give in an interview or speech any time recently.

wavey · 2019-12-06T13:56:59.352Z

Aceris:

Yes. (I think I’ve said so upthread?)

Ah, sorry if I missed that, I had the impression you were leaning towards the LibDems. Anyway, welcome aboard, comrade!

Aceris · 2019-12-06T14:01:33.408Z

wavey:

Ah, sorry if I missed that, I had the impression you were leaning towards the LibDems. Anyway, welcome aboard, comrade!

The LibDems policy is to support a 2nd referendum if they are unable to revoke.

wavey · 2019-12-06T14:13:55.158Z

Well if they can’t revoke, I think their order of preference is 1) remove Corbyn, and only then 2) people’s vote, but ok.

Asked if she would support Labour in an effort to stop Britain leaving the EU if there was a hung parliament, [Jo Swinson] said she would, provided that Corbyn was no longer its leader.

Timex · 2019-12-06T14:22:41.982Z

Why doesn’t Labour just get someone other than Corbyn?

scottagibson · 2019-12-06T14:25:38.408Z

Why don’t the Lib-Dems get someone other than Swinson?