Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

Is it though?

Nothing they/Starmer have/has said leads me to conclude they will actually be any better.

My local MPs are all Labour, and they have not done a good job at anything.

That’s my point, I don;t know what to do.

When your choice is known shit versus highly likely to be more of the same shit then maybe the best thing is to not engage.

Why we are still using such an archaic FPTP system, and not having any real input into anything that happens (I get taxed, don’t get a say in where that goes; don’t get a say in what the council does → and no, writing to the council doesn’t get anything done) etc etc.

It’s a shit system, and you saying choose the potentially marginally less shit option, doesn’t make it at all appealing.

As you yourself point out, Labour is hardly for the labourers anyway, they do seem to me to be either conservatives by a different name, or alternatively raging mad idiots like Corbyn.

Is Starmer really a safe pair of hands?

Is Starmer going to enforce our existing legislation and hold our water companies to account?

What is he going to do to make life a bit less expensive for people?

How is he going to address the housing price crisis?

What is he going to do about il/legal immigration?

How will he act with Europe/The EU?

What will he do about Ukraine?

The budget deficit?

The underfunded armed forces, the toothless police force (especially in London, a police force seemingly hobbled by…a Labour Mayor), the underfunded or overspending health service?

And so on and so forth.

Yeah, the current leadership is terrible, but here is my point, the Labour MPs I have seen seem to be pretty indistinguishable.

So, if the choice is Sunak or Starmer, honestly not sure which way to go (not that I get to vote between those 2 anyway).

If it was Truss or Johnson, I’d go Starmer for sure. Those 2 were horrendous.

It does seem though that the worst elements of the Conservatives have been neutered, i.e. Braverman, Truss, Patel, Johnson.

Although we still have Gove, and Badenoch is in the wings somewhere.

Honestly, no.

The last guy to have charisma and zest was Bojo, and that was a waste.

I’d settle for strong morals and a clear plan to address the many challenges, and at a huge stretch, getting back into the EU.

Starmer to me is not just dull, he is actually kind of repulsive in how he doesn’t seem to want to commit to anything, he seems to me just as weaselly as Boris, who would say or do anything he thought he needed to.

What makes you think that? Everything about his background looks like he’s been a very capable public servant and force-for-good.

My main criticism is that he’s been too safe in his policy proposals, but I don’t blame him for not wanting to be the guy remembered for missing an open goal. What he does talk about are things like building housing, which is about all it takes to win my vote these days.

Having had a look at the Labour website, their 5 goals are actually quite interesting:

Missions – The Labour Party

I might vote for them actually, if they get even half of this done.

Edit: all 5 of those actually sounds like small c conservatism to me.

Absolutely, FPTP sucks balls. I singed a petition back a few years ago for electoral reform, but of course the Tories had no interest in electoral reform as it would have diluted their control. For a while Labour seemed to want to push it, but it dropped off as theyseemed more likely to actually win, again cynically because they wouldn’t want to dilute their power either. But yes, absolutely we need to get rid of FPTP. But in a two party system, or unless Greens and LibDems make bigger gains, I don’t see anyone trying to get it done once they’re in the position to do so.

See, usually the cynicism sets in after the successor botches it up, not before he’s had a chance.

I mentioned above, I am also frustrated by Starmer’s lack of a bullet point list… I do think it’s partly because he wants the largest voting block possible, knows the sea change will happen regardless, and any kind of narrower focus will suddenly bring out the clashing groups who might want environment over business, economy over immigration, etc. the less he gets specific the less he has to do damage control before the election. But yes, its not great for people who want more than “we’ll be better than the idiots”.

Well, the 5 point plan/mission is a bullet list of sorts, so I was wrong about that!

Likewise I haven’t seen much to get excited about (although I’m pleased to see plans to re-nationalise the railways).

But I do believe - no matter how they spin it pre-election - that Labour will invest significantly more in public services, and at the end of the day that’s enough for me to vote for them. Austerity has been an absolute crime against the most vulnerable in the country.

You can find plenty of similar graphs to this to remind you of the difference between the parties (even discounting effects like covid):

He has opposed pro-union policy and especially the right to strike consistently throughout his tenure as party leader, mainly it seems because he doesn’t want the fed-up ex-Conservative vote to be annoyed by rail strikes and the like. It appears to me he’s never been interested in policy to begin with, just in power. It’s only because of extreme pressure from the unions who make up the actual party membership that he has recently resumed making pro-working-class noises; this was widely reported as recently as two days ago.

But withal, the worst Labour politician is a hundred times better than the best Conservative which is why I can’t begin to understand someone who thinks Sunak isn’t all that bad compared to Starmer. Sunak’s profound badness would have made him one of the worst PMs in British history if not for the grotesque monsters and buffoons who came immediately before him; it’s only his weakness in his own party that has prevented him from doing even more damage than Cameron, May, Johnson, and Truss.

Well we went through a Labour leader that sat on the other end of this spectrum - I prefer this one!

But yes, it’s hard to see why anyone would prefer Sunak to Starmer.

If you guys are replying to/ talking about me, well I believe I laid out my thoughts above.

I don’t prefer either of them, and that there is the problem.

Given Sunak’s history, and that of the Conservative, the feelings should be massively, overwhelmingly in favour of Starmer.

Interesting article on “Project Sunak.”

It outlines how Sunak was seen as a calm, safe pair of hands, who it seems has struggled to get anything of worth done (although he has brought inflation down). To my mind, this could be talking about Starmer in 5 years.

A safe pair of hands doesn’t count for much when those hands are mostly going to be busy fighting a civil war within their own party, which is a big part of the reason why he can’t get anything done, or formulate his own personal political project.

He does seem to have outmaneuvered the far right in that civil war, which speaks to some level of political skill, but he’s still stuck trying to implement a lot of their policies, which were always going to go nowhere.

Sunak is dead in the water. Starmer may be vapid and toothless, but at least he’s free to act.

I don’t blame you for not wanting to vote for him though. Votes should be earned, not given, even if you’re running against melted ice cream.

Corbyn might not have been horrible just based on some aspects of domestic policy, because at least he has some ideology. But he’s also a sullen populist consumed by ressentiment, and appears to be one of those leftists who hate the center more than the right, hence his support for Brexit. So yeah, he was one of those who would be terrible at actual government, and also his extreme obstinacy might really have cost votes in the next election.

There’s also the antisemitism, of course, though it’s hard to tease apart actual antisemitism from the specious claims of Israeli government supporters who apply the tag to anyone who doesn’t love them. I think Corbyn probably really is antisemitic, though, apart from his legitimate opposition to Israeli fascism.

Is he? I mean, the spotlight is (deservedly) on the Conservatives, but Starmer ousted, then sidelined and marginalised Jeremy Corbyn, and that also has the tinge of internal party struggle, or civil war as you put it.

I mean, I will probably vote for him, just because I don’t feel entirely comfortable not voting (although there were recent by elections, along with elections for a new super mayor, that I abstained from) and my greatest fear (if you can call it fear, more disquiet) is that someone from the big C Conservative party, or from Reform, end up in charge of Nottingham.

I recognise that the MP for a region is not actually in charge of that region, that’s the Mayor’s/Council’s purview, but you get what I mean.

I have only met one MP in person, this guy, who is now a Lord. And he made my skin crawl.

It is a hard one to unravel. I find that accusations of {x}ist and {y}phobe fly faster than a Concorde and with less reliability than Boeing’s landing gear, and ironically I think it opens the door to real phobes/ists because when you make every little thing ist/phobic, there is so much noise and lack of credibility that those who genuinely are can just brush it off.

That said, something about Corbyn just gave me the shivers, and I would never have voted for him, so Starmer is doing one thing right there.

It certainly did, but it wasn’t the same situation. Taking down a candidate with few chances of winning a general election, when you’re in opposition, is not as dysfunctional or as destructive as taking down a serving prime minister - and it does not have any consequences for the country.

I won’t claim to have followed UK Labour with any real passion, but as far as I’ve heard, the Corbyn faction has been dealt with quite NKVD-like. I’m not aware that they currently have a faction that could be as disruptive or powerful as the Brexit faction in the Tories, which will continue to either stab its own prime ministers in the back, or advance ones that are so inept that they can’t outlast a cabbage.

The hope/fear is that these Brexiteers go into Reform.

More Teesside shenanigans:

Lots of rumours and speculation that an election is about to be called. (Feels too good to be true - can’t come soon enough if you ask me, but wouldn’t be surprised if Sunak clings on for as long as possible.)

It’s not going to get any better than now:

  • Look we’re out of the (technical) recession
  • Look, we’ve conquered inflation!
  • We’ve sorted Rwanda and those dirty immigrants will be going there real soon.
  • Culture wars, culture wars, culture wars.

If they wait they have to actually keep the economy going and send people to Rwanda, neither of which I think they’ll be able to do…

If they don’t go now the are just praying that Keir is shown hitting small children and it’s discovered that Angela Rayner has a vast property empire she’s told nobody about.