Heh, yeah, same here. I just make up shit in my head. Like when someone upthread said someone was a RoI party, I read that as “Return on Investment” party. That sounds like an alright party, you know?
A united Ireland that results from a hard border*
It’s not really known outside Ireland, but it was Unionists (supporting the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland) in the 1910s that set up the first paramilitary organisation and began to engage in violence in anticipation of the whole island of Ireland gaining home rule (effectively self-determination while remaining part of the Empire). They threatened rebellion despite Home Rule being supported by the British Government at the time.
There are still unionist paramilitary organisations, they’ve handed very few of their weapons backs, and they would die rather than become part of a united Ireland.
Sinn Fein = SF = The main Catholic/United Irish party. They’re the most widely supported party in Northern Ireland (NI) and due to demographics (Catholics have far bigger families than protestants), they’re sitting happy knowing that their support is only growing. Due to gerrymandering, they’ve traditionally been less represented in politics than they should have been but that’s started to change. Sinn Fein is an all-ireland political party and also runs in elections in the Republic of Ireland (RoI, colloquially ‘the south’).
Historically they had very little support in southern Ireland, but in the last election gained 14%. The ruling party gained 25% by comparison. They were poised to become kingmakers in the 2020 election but
A) the legislative stalemate in Northern Ireland has made them look ineffective and more interested in posturing and grandstanding than governing
&
B) their actions in the south have very much become “bemoan anything the governing party is doing without ever introducing credible alternatives”.
As such, they’re under some internal pressure to start looking and acting like they can govern if they want to perform well in the next set of elections.
Does that help at all?
Although the Irish volunteers were formed in 1913 after the creation of the Ulster volunteers, it’s membership included militarised rebel organisations dating back to the 18th century. Of course it is fair to describe such organisations as freedom fighters, but the story is somewhat more complex than you make out.
Your next assertion is more clearly untrue, the DUP achieved more votes than SF in both 2017 elections. The assembly results give the two parties almost equal seat counts on almost equal vote counts. The General results do give DUP a disproportionate number of seats, but that’s typical of fptp. In any case if you just look at DUP vs SF, moving one seat across would actually overstate the SF vote. Similarly if you look at nationalist/unionist. If there has been gerrymandering by the independent boundary commission during the Blair government, it has been remarkably ineffective.
In short, @kedaha is a liar. Do not trust what he says.
SF earned 1200 less votes in 2017 than DUP. Considering the ongoing demographic changes ( and the implosion of the SDLP), it’d be a bit strange to argue that they aren’t the most widely supported party in NI.
I very clearly used the word paramilitary organisation. Previous rebellions (and the forces involved) were very different from the paramilitary Irish Volunteers and Ulster Volunteers.
I also said that Northern Ireland had been gerrymandered in the past - which is true. A quick Google of the term shows it generally being used in relation to Northern Ireland up until it became a hot topic in the USA in recent years. I mean, the shape of Northern Ireland is precisely because of gerrymandering - as much area of Ulster as possible in the 1920s without threatening a protestant political majority.
And it isn’t as if the DUP aren’t still engaging in it either.
This is what Northern Ireland would have looked like if only protestant majority areas had have formed Northern Ireland in 1924/25
It was considered by both Ulster Unionists and the British Conservatives that Ulster needed as much space and population as possible to remain viable as a rump state. They then engaged in blatant gerrymandering for most of the history of Northern Ireland to entirely disenfranchise Catholics. The gerrymandering of Derry is quite literally a textbook example used in university political science classes.
Well, Labour loses another MP.
The next big hope for change is next week, when the Cooper amendments is voted on again. This may force yet more resignations from the government, as patience is running thin (850 hours to go!).
And I will eat some sort of hat-shaped object, and send pictures to @kedaha, if SF take their seats any time in the next decade (of course I don’t discount things changing on longer timescales).
I’d give higher odds of NI more longer having any seats in the UK Parliament… and I agree with @kedaha’s assessment of a hard border fostering sentiment for a united Ireland, and the return to the Troubles that would ensue. I can’t speak to the historical assessment.
Good luck to foreigners or 2nd + generation emigres trying to figure out Ireland’s politics :) I would gently suggest not trying to make any sweeping generalizations unless you live there, its genuinely a very complex scene.
Oh and as your question was not answered @Rock8man ROI= Republic of Ireland , the country in the south of Ireland which will be staying as part of the EU. NI= Northern Ireland, the country in the North of Ireland which is park of the UK and would leave if Brexit occurs. I am sure you figured it out but just in case.
Anyway I saw the extra Labour MP resigning the party. Its at times like these that Corbyn’s short term blind stubbornness (a trait he shares with May) pisses me off.
This is absolutely the weakest two leaders of Labour & Conservative parties at the same time I have seen in my lifetime.
IMO they are weak by intent. This is a case where strong leadership probably means political suicide. So they’re being guided by unenlightened self-interest.
Sounds more than plausible sadly :( They have done the political calculus and decided being a pooh stick is preferable to being a fish I guess.
Not claiming to be an expert on the intricacies of NI politics (I left at a young age) - many of my family still there begrudgingly vote for SF as the alternative is splitting the vote and letting the damn awful DUP in everywhere. My family just want to get on with their lives in peace and it’s a shame there is no credible alternative to vote for.
In my college days I joined the youth wing of one of the Irish political parties out of curiousity. Stayed in touch, went to national conferences, that kind of thing. Have met a good few DUP councillors and MLAs at various events and they have universally been contemptible human beings, and it’s not as if Irish politicians in general aren’t more than a bit craven (and I’ve plenty of experience there).
Theresa May giving them veto power was when I knew the UK and any sort of negotiated Brexit was screwed.
@Jonah @kedaha yup, I think our shared stories would probably go on for pages :) Its a complex scene thats for sure.
In other news, this one is a short watch. Corbyn should be focused on changing this perception that now exists under his leadership.
Possibly 4 more Labour MP’s tomorrow, but the Westminster gossip pipeline is so crazy at the moment so who knows.
Two of Corbynisms most feared political enemies and long standing targets for his most devoted followers, quiz show host and magnificent eye candy Rachel Riley and soap actress Tracy Ann Obermann have now initiated legal proceedings against some of the worst of the them, as they’ve been running a concerted hate and abuse campaign against these two women for the last year or so.
Fwiw, I appreciate you all sharing your stories. It’s damn hard to get any context for another place’s politics and factions and history, and anyone sharing here is helping the rest of us out :)
Rachel Riley is basically a host on a quiz show, and her speciality is doing maths problems really fast and generally being very brainy and very pretty. Its a daytime quiz show that old people like called Countdown, and theres also a funny comedian panel version on Friday evenings.
Until she decided to speak up about the abuse her m8 Tracy was getting she has been completely apolitical, but now she needs guards.
It’s confusing, because their legal representative mostly talks about it being stopping libel/lies and also argues that
Mark Lewis, who made his name representing phone-hacking victims, said he is contacting people who have either posted allegedly libellous claims about his clients or repeatedly sent them large numbers of messages, which he says is tantamount to harassment.
And that’s coming from The Guardian, which isn’t exactly friendly toward anti-Semitism or Corbyn.
(The libel is a faked islamophobic tweet)
You wouldn’t be cherry picking the most negative articles now pwk would you? :p
Also, you’re still somehow trying to make this about Corbyn when it isn’t. I can’t find a single article (and I’ve read 8 on Riley so far) that has either Riley, her representative or the journalist mentioning Corbyn or Corbynites.
Could you not just post without needing to editorialise stuff to being about Corbyn when it isn’t? It’d be nice to discuss anti-Semitism in labour (and Britain in general) without everything somehow having to revolve around Corbyn.
I’m sad to say that European politics seem like a giant clusterfuck to me, there being so many different parties. In the US you don’t usually have to count much higher than 2. Is the Three Body Problem in physics applicable to here as well?
It depends. Smaller parties general ally with larger parties and share similar goals. If you have a labor party and a green party, they’ll usually form a coalition government. If during an election, the Green Party is getting a lot more traction and members, they’ll start demanding more emphasis on environment.
Likewise, a Christian party and a Conservative party might do the same, but the conservative party might emphasize deregulation, while the Christian party might emphasize the welfare state.
General, what you have coalitions of parties, and as the individual parties get larger or smaller, you have an idea of what the populace as a whole wants done.
In the US, we have progressives and moderates in the democratic party, and you see which side has which strengths by who is winning primaries.
Yeah there is no anti-Semitism or culture of anti-Semitism in Labour, that’s why the party isnt splitting and MP’s arent resigning.
Im not linking anything, if you dont believe there is any anti-Semitism in Labour then you carry on waving that flag if it makes you feel good about it.
After literally years of being called a house nigger and uncle tom by Corbynistas due being a British Asian of Muslim origin due to calling out racists, Ive fought a million battles on other forums which I dont need to replicate here. I came to the conclusion that Corbyn is a racist piece of shit years ago and if some random guy on a forum insists he isnt then he’s welcome to it, its not about what you think, my vote is dependent on me, a minority who grew up in the 70s and have personally experienced institutional racism making the decision that the Labour party is a racist group because what i see matches my experience of decades.
Im the angry brown guy calling out racism in my own party, your the white guy from another country who swears blind it doesnt exist. Im not going to start voting for Labour or go back to campaigning in the high street or delivering leaflets because you turn a wilfully blind eye and tell me what ive seen and experienced on a daily basis for 3 years never happened. I believe my fellow minorities when they claim persecution and oppression, its as easy as that. That’s how anti-racism works, that’s how allyship works. If there’s one thing ive learnt in my 40+ years as a minority is that those that hate me go for the Jews first. Always. You cannot go wrong by throwing yourself between an anti-Semite and a Jew. It is merely pre-emptive self defence.
Anyway, enough of Labour’s anti-Semitism problem, im sure that will pop up again later when even more MPs quit due to Corbyn’s online hate mob.
What’s actually headlining now and turning off Labour voters in even greater numbers is the hard left have decided to come out in support of ISIS bride Shamima Begum, and now socmedia is full of Corbynistas wanking themselves into a frenzy over the thought of rescuing their ISIS sweeteheart from those evil Yazidi, Iraqi, Syrian and Kurdish victims of ISIS terror. There’s never been a terrorist who the hard left don’t have sympathy for.
The case is an interesting one and yes, some genuine issues over how it being handled. Begum left UK as a minor and joined ISIS. Married a genocidal, mass-rapist and slaver. ISIS lost. Now aged 19 wants to come back. No regrets in joining ISIS, remains a supporter. Her call to be allowed back was also accompanied by comments about the children who were murdered in the Manchester Ariana Grande bombing deserved it. Unrepentant, unapologetic.
The Home Secretary revoked her citizenship due to Bangaldeshi heritage kids being granted citizenship automatically if under 21 (its so they can be snatched during divorces and brought to Bangladesh and not repatriated). However, Bangladesh also have claimed a small print in their laws that allow them to reject enemies and refuse to accept her.
There is some issues around laws that need to be dealt with correctly, but what no one has mentioned, nor seem to care about is her being dealt with in the lands of her victims, by the laws of her victims, and to the satisfaction of her victims. British media is full of the hard left anti-West, anti-Imperialists, pro-Islamist e-celebs and commentators trying to claim shes a victim, its all actually the fault of the British government for letting her “get brainwashed” and she should be safely returned for therapy and rehabilitation and since these people are all hardcore Corbynistas and all over Labour communities yet another issue is forcing members and supporters away from the party. It turns out that whilst calling out failure of the Home Office to follow correct procedure is one thing, the hard left simply cant resist framing it so it looks like they are sympathetic with ISIS members and guess what, ut isn’t really a mainstream thing with public support after all. It loses votes.
Thanks for that summary, pwk. I just can’t see how a country can accept her back if she doesn’t renounce ISIS. Seems like a vote losing ticket to support her cause as you’ve mentioned.