Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

I must confess to being one of those who was surprised and confused by her willingness to so abruptly and suddenly take in some 1 million extra people, and give them citizenship not just of Germany, but of the EU by extension.

I can also easily see how people might not be happy with that.

I also thought accepting so many countries into the EU all at once back in 2005 etc was a bit too much too soon.

1 million ontop of a 500 million population is nothing, but it was and is a gift to any party even slightly concerned about immigration, and immigration being the polarising subject that it is, means in effect that it was a gift to somewhat extremist parties.

They weren’t granted citizenship.

My impression was that they weren’t granted it immediately, but that they will be getting it sooner or later.

Anyway I was in Germany at the time, and at one of the bus or train stations, I came across a group of the refugees.

It changes your perspective somewhat when you see people, not numbers.

I bought some of them some McDonald’s.

I wasn’t trying to kill them honestly, just that I was there in the queue, getting served, so I bought some extra and gave it away.

From 2015 to 2050 we will need about 50 million more working age people in Europe to keep current population balance. This is about 1.4 million immigrants into the EU each year, on average, which is actually about the real net immigration rate.

I know you agree, but it is good to spell this out time and again, because the reality is not only that immigration is a short term economic positive, but also a necessity mid and long term. Anti immigration rhetoric makes no sense, unless you are to magically raise birthrates.

Well, that raises the question of why are birthrates so low, and why is it an issue?

For example, if everyone is living healthy lives until their eighties, then what does old mean, and shouldn’t pensions etc be reformed?

But I think that is for another thread.

Old people generally stop working (ie, retirement), but they require lots of services, particularly medical ones. This is especially in countries with strong social safety nets.

The money to fund those comes from the people who are working (ie, young people).

When there are tons of old people, and much smaller numbers of younger people, then it’s impossible to maintain the standards that previous generations received.

It means “Carousel Begins!”

No kidding! I imagine if there was implemented a ‘Logan’s Run’ type solution for even a cut-off at age 60, we’d see savings of upwards of 70% in the health care system. Is it inhumane to ask 70-80 year olds to stop sucking ressources away from the young? I don’t know. Back only a hundred years, people were ecstatic to live to 60. Another hundred years and it was forty.

No, there’s only one body of people who saw that as “arrogance” and there’s some photos upthread of them throwing one armed salutes.

There was a lot of disagreement with it in Merkel’s own party. Are you saying the Nazis are in power in Germany? :)

DUP are still “No” (of course, it’s what they do best). Which means the ERG are almost certainly still no. So she may not even try to to get MV3 past Bercow.

Ethno-nationalism is just that. Be is soft, white glove ethno-nationalism or the more traditional saluting flavours.

It’s not immigration that is a threat to civilisation and the West, it is far right ethno-nationalism. Brexit not Mohammad split the UK and set its people on each other. Brexit is ruinous and degenerate and the real threat to this country and its the result of the hard right nationalists

Refugees in Germany have to wait an average of about 7 years, and even then have to meet certain requirements, before they are awarded citizenship. After that they can apply for a passport. But to say the Germans just “created 1 million citizens and inflicted them on the EU” is pure populist nonsense

May currently says there are no votes for her plan, so it looks like the EU insistence on a vote before a deferral will be problematic.

Not as problematic as not having a plan though.

You know who else didn’t have a plan? The cylons.

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And you would need to be granted asylum in the first place, which is currently only the case for 37% of applicants. That number was much higher in 2015 at 49% due to the large number of Syrian refugees in that year.

Absolutely. Think of Merkel’s decision what you will, but her opening of the borders took huge pressure of other EU countries, as tons of refugees were already stranded in EU countries not exactly eager to take them in. Her pleas for a EU wide solution to distributing refugees are not about those people Germany let in in 2015/2016, but the constant stream of refugees that has existed well before the Syrian crisis and which countries like Greece and Italy were left to deal with on their own for far too long.

Yeah I understand that much.

I was under the impression that pensions etc, welfarfe, originally came about because Bismarck was trying to get that vote.

He set the age to receive a pension very high, an age that some 1% of the population would reach.

Age 60!

Fast forward some hundred years and 60 is no longer old, or notable really.

So shouldn’t the age of receiving a government pension, or retiring, not be something like 80?

And do we really need to maintain the standards that previous generations received? Which generations, how many?

And can’t we boost the birth rate?

Well, that’s all well and good, but whenever you try to do that you make a lot of old people angry, and old people vote a lot more than young people.

And people in rich countries have fewer and fewer kids, partly because a kid is very expensive.