Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

Politics and religion
1938

I disagree with that characterization. It was a fudge which all sides knew was a fudge then became an agreed upon border ratified by the Republic, UK & NI 3 years later. I dont think anyone was trying to deceive anyone.

That said, as someone who is half Irish half English it pains me to see the border issue come up again after both great peoples voted overwhelmingly for the good friday agreement and the removal of that hard border. This was done with far greater levels of support in the UK & Republic than there has ever been for Brexit.

I am still very very angry that neither the Tories nor Labour are actively fighting to STOP Brexit. I dont want it to work. I want it stopped, and a narrow minority/majority in the UK agree with me.

The Irish border is one of many many ways in which the UK and ROI will be worse off through this Brexit madness. Why May & Corbyn (both intelligent people of goodwill) seem hellbent on implementing this doomed project is beyond me.

@scottagibson

That works for me. Lets extend it for a reasonable time and work things out later. Lets say a hundred years to start :)

1939

Sorry, but this is disingenuous codswallop. The backstop guarantees the Irish their desired outcome on the Irish border. It doesn’t defer the decision, it makes it.

Furthermore I hardly think someone defending the German dominated eu against charges of diplomatic bullying wants to discuss the past records of the nations involved.

1940

Always fun to run up against people’s historical amnesia - especially the British one. Say what you will about the Germans, at least they are aware of their history and have been willing to own up to some of what they did for these past 70+ years. That’s a rare thing indeed, among nations (and something the UK - in particular - could learn from).

1941

I don’t mean that the decision to delay was intentionally duplicitous - but it’s a fact that when they did sit down to hammer out the details, the British ran roughshod over Irish interests (in part because they had - as they are doing now - made conflicting promises to the different parties in the issue). And they were able to do so because they were on the right side of the power imbalance in that conflict.

This time, the Irish are on the right side of the power imbalance. One can hardly expect them to not make use of their advantage in order to ensure that the outcome is one they desire.

That anyone can find this aggrieving, or even surprising, makes absolutely no sense from a historical perspective. And the fact that @Aceris thinks that the backstop is essentially the same as a permanent agreement, simply re-affirms that the Irish are doing the right thing for their national interests (which is not the same as EU interests) - because it suggests what everyone already knows: there isn’t any way the British government currently in power can satisfy both the Irish and its current power coalition - and when push comes to shove, if a temporary deal runs out with this Government still in power, they’ll take the most self-serving decision possible, and ignore Irish interests. The idea that Ireland should put its trust in these power dynamics working out to their satisfaction is laughable.

1942

Yes, exactly. And if the UK hasn’t come up with an actual proposal to deal with the border in the last two years, that’s indicative of something, and that something isn’t that it’s a simple problem they can easily deal with in the next two years.

1943

EU “bullying”

What a nonsensical concept. No one or nothing is being “bullied”. Supranationals and sovereigns can’t “bully” ffs. This sounds like the dogshit bring vomited out by the ethno-nationalists trying to claim victim status instead of owning the disaster they caused because they hate brown people.

The EU is right, the Brexiters are wrong and we need the pain of economic armageddon to underline the truth that we’re a middle rate nation, a middle rate economy and a non entity in the global power lists ruled by mediocre has-beens and drive any remnants of imperialist glory out of their thick fucking racist skulls.

1944

Hear, hear!

1945

I was wondering when @playingwithknives would return with another hand grenade. :)

1946

Unfortunately I’m fasting right now so no popcorn for me.(reference to the drama in this thread)

However I’ll be breaking the fast in 4.5 hrs.

I was going to get a burger or 5 (will be a 72 hr fast once completed.) But I may have popcorn instead.

That aside, people calling other people bullies is, in my experience, often a claim of victim hood and an avoidance of responsibility, even when there is an element of power disparity.

In this particular instance I feel the UK has caused a massive headache for everyone and from that point of view we are the bullies.

Regards history, yes we used and abused our power.

However Britain has owned up to the worst of it. We apologised for the Irish famine, Mau Mau insurgency etc.

I honestly don’t think Britain was any worse than other (colonial or other) powers and actually was better than many.

(The following paragraphs are not intended to insult anyone or start a flame war, merely to point out that pretty much every country has blood on its hands and that bringing out the dirty laundry, so to speak, is rarely constructive.

Read on but don’t get angry and if you feel the need to reply then please don’t flame.)

And yes that includes the treatment of the American colonies. Your rebellion, backed and won by France, Holland and Spain, comes accross as rather petulant and hypocritical in light of how you then kept slaves for a long while (and fought us over it), attempted to invade Canada and then threw the natives off their land when you pushed west, and then started a land grab war with Mexico. Your record is far from spotless, so I feel your critique of the British is somewhat hollow.

And yeah Germany has owned up to stuff. But then again, while the British technically invented concentration camps (Boer war) it took german thinking and German complicity to create the Holocaust, so, forgive my french, dammed fucking right they own that shit.

But yes, other countries ought to do the same, including Britain, including the USA (you owe Canada and Mexico and the natives and the slaves and the current black population an apology. And Vietnam!) And Spain (south America) and Portugal (Africa, Brazil) and France (Africa, Asia ) and Turkey (the Armenians, which they still actively deny) and Russia (for every single Soviet state, and Afghanistan and what they did to Germany in 1945) and what China is doing right now (Uighurs, Tibet) or Japan’s record.

And so on.

Simply put anyone who had any power is guilty.

If acknowledging this is a prerequisite of moving on and making state agreements then nothing will ever get done.

And the EU itself would never have existed.

Regarding Brexit, I share the above opinion and consternation that our supposedly intelligent and empathetic leadership don’t seem to have any moral fibre.

Leading doesn’t mean pandering.

And our institutions are supposed to protect us from the tyranny of a majority.

This is why why have the 2 houses and a queen.

*And when the majority is so slight,

*and the thing they voted for has been conclusively proven to be non existent,

*and actively dangerous to the welfare of the country

  • and a large number of voters were disenfranchised (especially those who had been living in the EU for 15 yrs or more )

*and the referendum was NON BINDING, aka a large scale opinion poll

(Edit-on mobile phone. Formatting is challenging)

I don’t see how any politician can actually want to go ahead with it.

I think any politician who campaigned in an election to stop the process would galvanise the country and have massive success.

The Brexit voting Base will have been very reduced by all the waiting and wrangling and split amongst the various idiots like Bojo.

And I’d actually vote!

As it is, my emotions are approaching something akin to disgust.

PS- just to reiterate, not here for a flame war.

If my comments cause a massive derail then I’ll edit or remove them.

Also, this being the Internet you can’t see my body language.

I don’t intend any offence or hate wih what I’ve written and hope it is received in the same spirit it is intended.

1947

Past grievances and injustices are beside the point. The simple fact is that Ireland won’t accept a deal that leads to a hard border with NI, and they are in a position to block any deal struck by the EU. That’s reality, and whining about whether that’s “fair” is a waste of time.

Given that, it makes sense to settle the border issue before addressing anything else. The UK seems to believe it can offer such an attractive deal to the rest of the EU that they will forget about the border issue, but that’s wishful thinking.

If you are intent on buying a four wheel drive car, the first thing to ask at the dealership is “Do you have any four wheel drive cars?” If the answer is, “Well let’s talk about that later…” then you might as well go home.

1948

Gotcha thanks. Yeah not sure about the power balance here. Frankly I think the EU & Eire are bending over backwards to try and be accommodating. But there are limits and obviously the border is one.

Its very clear if the UK wants to leave then its the UK that’s going to have to give on the border. After all its the UK government that is proposing changing the good friday agreement here. Not on purpose and with no ill intent, but they are. That is not acceptable to the majority of the population in the UK & Ireland.

also a moment of levity…

" The U.K.’s post-Brexit access to $1.7 trillion in public projects relies on the good will of its European neighbors. Too bad Moldova holds a grudge.

The tiny country wedged between Romania and Ukraine is joining half a dozen nations in blocking the U.K.’s re-entry to the World Trade Organization’s Government Procurement Agreement, an accord that smooths the bidding process on public contracts, including in the $837 billion U.S. market.

Why the hold-up? Corina Cojocaru, Moldova’s economic counselor to the WTO, and her team were denied entry to the U.K. last year when they wanted to discuss their future relationship with Britain after it leaves the European Union.

And Cojocaru has a good memory.
"
U.S. Stalls U.K. Bid to Stay in $1.7 Trillion Procurement Market - Bloomberg

1949

Meanwhile, to get a feel for the nationalistic, jingoistic, nostalgia driven, war glorifying yearning for the days of colonialism and imperialism that dominates the Brexiter contingent, this is the plan from the Department of International Trade.

No one outside of certain Brits and history buffs (like me) gives a fuck about the Battle of Britain. No one. China National Petroleum and Tencent isnt going to be impressed with us waving the flag for the days when we burnt down the Summer Palace. Reliant Industries will run a mile from a trade deal because sending a fucking colonialist war machine is going to rile up the masses. BMW will… well, what do you reckon. Its the most basic misunderstanding of the entire planet from these jingoistic war obsessed morons

This obsession is at the heart of Brexiter ideology. Look at the socmedia flow of the Brexiter MP’s, its an stream of referrals to WW2, the Battle of Britain, Empire and war.

You can hoplessly charge the guns Andrea, Im not joining you. If they let me, I’ll voiunteer to man their cannons.

When it all goes tits up we know whats going to happen. All these flag waving fuckers will go to war on those they accuse of forcing it to go wrong. Brown people, gays, Jews and liberals.

1950

Jesus the hashtag “#ExportingisGREAT”

Seriously? Nobody does naff like the British. Number 1 baby :)

1951

I mean, so we weren’t exporting when part of the EU? People think exporting is bad and we need to change their minds? Why are they cheerleading for the most basic functions of trade? What does that even mean?

The talent have run a mile from the civil service because they refuse to oversee a shitfest and what we’re left it is the idiot offspring of the Brexiter contingent and the scrapings at the bottom of the CV bin, like Darren Grimes.

and here is a Brexit MP’s opinion on convicted criminals and their penalties.

1952

That’s on the less objectionable and stupid end of the spectrum of Nadine Dorries’s opinions.

1953

Uhm, no… the British were not any better than anyone else. But for sure, every nation has done truly atrocious stuff during their history, no question. Comparing human suffering is kind of a pointless game, though. Also, I’m not even remotely American.

The original point, in any case, is that talk of trust in international politics is pointless. Nation states can be trusted only insofar as it suits their interests. The Commonwealth is an excellent UK example, IMO, precisely because of how it has been misused and ignored - right up until the point when Brexiters needed an alternative to the EU to latch on to. Their fascination with the Commonwealth (though notably only the White portions - the African and Caribbean portions are apparently only interesting insofar as they can continue to be exploited) would be amusing, if it wasn’t also so damn tragic.

Don’t know about that, the EU is after all the result of the realization that perhaps it is better for old enemies to work together rather than hold on to old grudges and injuries and try for a rematch every generation. I would say it exists precisely because some visionary people realized that both sides had blood on their hands and that it was time to break the cycle of retaliation and try something different.

1954

Something that I didn’t learn about until recently on the Bugle is that the British caused a hell of a lot of famines all across the world.

Yeah, the British weren’t the worst, but that’s not really comforting for the people that starved in Ireland or India, or the arbitrary borders created in the Middle East, or the betrayal of local populations across the world.

Not the mention the plundering of national treasures across the world which will never be returned.

1955
1956

Ok this I can agree with.

I once brought it up in a debate that GB ought to be concentrating far more on the commonwealth, especially in terms of immigration, instead of worrying about the Polish.

yeah that was my point. If each country just kept a running tally of how bad everyone else had been to them, then the EU wouldn’t have existed.

It required burying of hatchets

And arbitrary borders in every single colony. All the colonials were guilty of this. The top of Mt Kilimanjaro used to be in what is now Kenya but Queen Victoria gave it to Kaiser Wilhelm 2 as a Christmas present…seriously wtf?

The Rwandan genocide was 100 years in the making, and it’s a surprise to me that Kenya hasn’t quite yet dissolved.

1957

Thanks for the link.

Interesting perspective.

I wonder if politicians can be tried for dereliction of duty the same way soldiers, nurses etc can be.

Their duty surely is to act in the best interests of the country?