So constructive! Good job adding to the conversation.
It’s called “common sense”.
I think that’s a fair question. For a certain number of posters who don’t really hang out on a regular basis, or that at least that I don’t talk to regularly, I don’t know. But I’ve been talking with some of the folks here for over ten years, and I’ve heard a lot of stories over that time.I would say that, insofar as you can know someone through internet conversations, I know a lot of folks here pretty well. And a really big percentage of those people here are men.
It’s fair to assume that there are few women here if few of the people who have identified themselves are women. Just like it’s fair to assume that there are few Trump supporters here, based on the subset of people who have expressed an opinion on Trump.
I don’t think that sample necessarily reflects the population here. I am not a woman, but knowing the Internet, I suspect that it’s at least as much of a hassle to be identifiable as a woman online as it is to be identifiable as a Trump supporter (or, in expressly political conversations, anywhere rightward of maybe John Kasich) here.
In both cases, it’s much less risky to simply not mention one’s membership in the demographic in question, and so the majority might look bigger than it actually is.
How many, really, though? I recall wumpus saying in another thread that we have something like seven hundred logged-in users here every day. If you sat me down and gave me a few hours, I could name maybe fifty, and describe the avatars of maybe fifty more whose usernames I forget. Even if the other six hundred users are always the exact same six hundred people, they (the lurkers, infrequent posters, and people whose interests don’t overlap with mine) are still a substantial majority over the internet-faces I do know.
So the maybe the problem isn’t that there are fewer women here than on BF, instead the problem is that women are more afraid to identify themselves here than on BF? Because that’s kind of the same problem.
Well there’s levels to that though, right? Some folks I recognize the username and know a fact or two about them. Like you, for example, I know that you post on a blog about a Battletech campaign you’re running with friends, it’s a fun read. I get the impression you’re a dude, but I wouldn’t say I know that, and if you were to tell me nope, I’m a woman then I wouldn’t say I’d be shocked exactly, just that I had definitely misread you. Not in the realm of impossibility.
How much of a problem is it? Unless it’s important to profess your gender, does it really matter if gender goes unidentified?
Sure, I don’t dispute that. (Or at least, not that it’s a problem; I think it’s a materially different problem, though, one which doesn’t necessarily mean Qt3 is entirely without a certain perspective.) I’m just saying I don’t think you can make assertions about the actual demographic makeup of the forum based on people who self-identify.
Consider it as a point of comparison. Part of the discussion here is that BF seems to be more accommodating to women and therefore has more of them. Evidence offered of that is that there are more identified women there, which has two likely causes.
- There are just more women there outright, probably by an order of magnitude
- Women for some reason opt to identify themselves in higher proportions on BF
If the former, well, we get right back to the above discussion.
If the latter, we can continue on the current thread, and wonder why women identify themselves on a supposed safe-haven like BF and not on a place like Qt3.
I don’t think it’s going off the reservation for me, a 30-something basically white dude, to say that women have a long and shitty history of being treated really poorly on the net. For evidence, I point you to the entire history of the internet. A common result of that is that women often didn’t choose to self-identify, and the ones who did were usually met with a torrent of “TITS OR GTFO” type replies and PMs. See also: reddit.
So, if the women on BF are identifying themselves more openly there, could it be that they’re less afraid of negative reactions, among other reasons?
Cuz that kinda gets to the heart of what we’ve been discussing, largely, in this thread for a good long while now.
Or to answer your question: no, knowing each other’s races and genders and incomes and bedsheet threadcounts doesn’t matter in an objective sense. However, if people feel more compelled to be guarded about vulnerable elements of themselves here than on BF, it can lend credence to the idea that BF is more welcoming to those vulnerable identities. Which doesn’t by itself make BF better, but if Qt3 is genuinely seen as an unpleasant or threatening place by some more vulnerable folks, I think that’s at least examining and reflecting on.
I’m slightly offended by the notion that women are “afraid” to identify themselves as such. I don’t think most of us feel that our opinions are less relevant based on our gender and therefore must be couched in anonymity. Sometimes I will point out I’m a female if I feel that adds relevance. But most of the time it doesn’t.
Perhaps the benefit of middle age is the ability to ignore the occasional comment aimed at my gender. The same as I am able to ignore attacks on my intelligence or my birthplace or anything else that can be singled out by the ignorant to negate someone’s opinions.
So please don’t assume all females are afraid. Some of use just don’t care enough to make a fuss or want bash our heads against a wall pointing out the stupid sexist things you just said.
And please don’t think I’m trying to insult the defenders. I’m not. I’m just saying that just because the rest of us don’t make a noise, doesn’t mean we don’t exist at all.
While I could probably do a better job of couching this stuff, @indyls, I do try to include words like “often” above to indicate I’m not trying to speak for all women.
However, I don’t think the stuff I’m describing is uncommon or out-of-line. Consider Amanda Hess’s thinkpiece and some of the responses that mounted to it a few years back.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170
https://psmag.com/environment/harassment-abuse-women-internet-looks-like-part-v-72771
Everyone’s going to react to that kind of environment differently, yes, but I think we can agree that certain kinds of reactions are going to be much more common.
edit: Calling off the hunt for firm numbers on avoiding self-identification right now cuz I should do a little work, but this article touches on the idea of people self-censoring what they post online to avoid harassment, and how women, black people, and LGBTQ folks tend to A) suffer more harassment than other groups, and B) suffer worse forms of harassment when they are harassed at all.
No, I would prefer that we not make any assumptions that we don’t have to. I’d love to hear from more women here, and if they tell me I’m wrong or I’m crazy, Qt3 is perfectly fine for women. My gut tells me there aren’t that many, but I’m open to correction. I can clearly see there are a lot of women at Broken Forum. So I have to ask myself why? Are they so different? If I said up above that I think Qt3 doesn’t do a great job of welcoming women, I’d also have to say that I don’t believe we make this place especially unwelcoming either, just that we all kind of hang out and do our thing and don’t give the question a lot of thought. Well, I’m trying to give the question a little more thought.
Is it potentially the subject matter distribution of the respective forums? I don’t frequent BF, so I don’t know about the latter. This may be a set of discussions that do not interest women posters, as much.
Armando, the last thing I want to do is negate or diminish anyone else’s experience on the internet. Like all of us, I’ve seen first hand the horrible things said to minority groups online. I understand there are some places where you don’t want to admit you are black or gay (or female for that matter).
But, generally speaking (and not addressing specific targeting) you can avoid them. I do. Honestly, I can’t help but wonder what kind of places people are subjecting themselves to if they are repeatedly abused. I’ve played MMO’s since vanilla WoW. I’ve played coop games online and been a member of dozens of forums. I’ve never hidden the fact that I’m female. Sure, I’ve run into people you hope never to meet in real life but – for me - its never amounted to more than a brief annoyance. Maybe I’m lucky. Or thick skinned. But I’m honestly baffled by the whole “internet is a dangerous place for females” thing.
(In case I need to clarify – I’m talking about in the case of adults, not children).
Please don’t take this that I’m refuting that everyone’s experience is different and perceived individually. I’m just telling you mine.
I’d say there’s a third reason. They seem to have a whole subforum dedicated to dating sims and stuff like that. I think BF has become a destination for discussing games like that, and it’s drawing more females as a result.
Could be. I don’t really remember incidents of females posting and somehow being chastised for being female. I guess there’s the odd “hubba hubba” comment now and then about an attractive female and that could be off-putting.
That’s how I look at it too.
If someone directs you toward a gaming forum where people discuss shooters, RPGs, space sims, strategy games, etc., what kind of image forms in your mind? My expectation is that the audience will be primarily male.
I remember having a discussion with someone on BF about something, and a third person chimed in with “you know so and so is female right?”. My immediate thought was “How would I know?”. My second thought was “what difference does it make?”
In other words, “There are just more women there outright” as Armando wrote.
Correct, but as I commented, I think there’s a reason for that, at least in part, that has to do with BF being a place for discussing the dating sims. I think Angie Gallant really got that ball rolling there with some Let’s Play pieces about various dating sims.
Chicken/egg thing, was it that they were protected by strict moderation or was it the content that drew women there? My guess is a bit of both. Not sure why it matters, really. Unless some of you guys (and gals!) are looking to write lets plays for dating sims here as an experiment, in which case I say “please do”. I hear the one about the gay daddies is particularly entertaining.