http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20071006-9999-1n6spies.html
When the military becomes convinced that the civilian government can’t find its ass with both hands, and accepts the need to act contrary to that government’s laws to preserve the country - seeing the country and the government as two different things - that is the change in principles that permits a military coup.
This is just a few guys. So far.
Wow.
Thats a very interesting story and on one hand I understand that what he was doing was 100% wrong but on the other hand I can see his point of view.
It seems to me as though he was just trying to get shit done.
The real issue though is what did the people that he give the information to do with it? One would hope they used it for the greater good but they could have just been playing him so who knows.
Rollery, the fact that this is a handful of reservists who were caught and prosecuted by the military sort of shoots a few holes in your crazy sky-is-fallingism.
The article doesn’t back up your chicken little spaz. Some Reservists (key point there) used military data for their civilian law enforcement jobs. That’s hardly “The Military”, but don’t let that stop you from blowing your little coup horn. Again.
That is disturbing on a lot of levels. I don’t know about military coup, but certainly significant breaches of military chains of command by high ranking officers are of concern. I kept expecting the punch line to be the people receiving the documents being foreign agents.
I kept expecting the punch line to be the people receiving the documents being foreign agents.
I was honestly waiting for that and even expecting it. The fact that they are not is a relief but still.
You’re both missing the point, which I did clearly state. It isn’t that they were caught, it’s that it happened at all. Somebody who’s done a tour of duty in the US military should - we hope - have some pretty strongly inculcated concepts regarding duty and honor and the legitimacy of the civilian government. This becomes far more important the higher up in the ranks you go, and the more classified information you have access to. If those values are not being taught, or if they are being taught and then overridden by other concerns afterward, that is the problem.
I have never said a coup is imminent. I do say that a coup requires a certain set of preliminary events in order to happen at all. If those preliminaries are prevented, it can’t happen. Obviously the best way to make sure it never does is to do exactly that - prevent them. This is one of those preliminaries.
Rollery, where in the article do you see any disregard for civilian government? If anything, it would be easier to argue that these misguided reservists violated their military obligations in order to strengthen the civilian organizations they worked for.
It’s definitely disturbing, but I’d say it’s symptomatic of corrupt and ineffective civilian leadership and not a reaction to it, which was Rollory’s claim.
You would figure that their law enforcement training would have inculcated concepts regarding duty and honor and the legitimacy of the civilian government. This has nothing to do with them being in the military or law enforcement and everything to do with them being dumbasses.
If anything, it would be easier to argue that these misguided reservists violated their military obligations in order to strengthen the civilian organizations they worked for.
Thats the impression I was getting from it.
Yes, although I think it is of some significance (not in a coup way) that they were military officers vs your run of the mill civilian turncoat. Military traitors (I’m not sure what term would be appropriate here) are always interesting in different ways from civilian ones.
WARNING: The following post has little to do with anything.
Interesting, but not really that unusual, on a couple of levels. One is the challenge you face working with classified material–you agree to a variety of restrictions and limits on dissemination of that material, but your overall mission and the material often is of such a nature that you can feel a push to disseminate it improperly in order to get the job done; sort of violating one mandate to support another mandate. This can be internal–so and so can really use this info but isn’t in the specific compartment/chain of command to get it through channels–or external–holy crap I gotta let Bob Woodward know! Either way it violates you oaths (and yes, you do swear oaths when given access to a lot of this stuff).
The other challenge is when you have disagreements with the way the structure within which you are imbedded is actually doing business as it were. The whole Oliver North/Poindexter/Reagan White House vs. Congress brouhaha of the 1980s over Central America and Iran and all that jazz fell into this category, with people ostensibly putting their definition of patriotism over the broader definition of the law of the land. Again, while the motivation may be less egregious than that of a spy for a foreign power, the action is clearly in violation of what the participants have agreed to abide by.
During the 1980s when I was involved with this sort of stuff it wasn’t much of an issue for me, personally–the stuff I dealt with was often dreadfully boring. But I had friends who, for instance, had strong ties to AIPAC, or were seriously, seriously hard-core anticommunist to their bones, and who often drifted into the “working for a higher power” sort of mindset. And then there were those who simply hated the ineffective bureaucracy and wanted to streamline day to day operations.
Me, I was a wuss I guess. I just kept my friggin’ mouth shut and did my job, and figured if the information needed to flow somewhere someone who got paid a lot more than I did would see to it. I don’t know what I would have done had I ever come across anything epochal, like proof that reptilian aliens were living at Area 51 or whatever.
Probably started a questionably formatted website about it, like everyone else who knows the Truth about Important Stuff.
I enjoyed your anecdote. I was always glad that when I dealt with secrets the cost benefit analysis to it was always pretty straightforward and immediate, with virtually no opportunities to fuck that up beyond keeping your mouth shut on the phone.
I kept hoping the Russians would approach me so I could get money from them and be a double agent. Ok, not really but it was an amusing fantasy.
We would get these briefings, when we were working overseas, hosted by various services. Often they consisted of films. I remember some hosted by this guy who, in real life and in the films, looked like a budget version of every Hollywood spy you’ve ever seen in films, down to the trenchcoat. The films usually had “sexy” women offering to buy some sap drinks or offering other “favors,” all of which of course led up to selling secrets. The films and briefings were often melodramatic, but naturally had more than a grain of truth to 'em. You get scads of young enlisted guys in a foriegn country, with little off-base supervision or restraint, and with an entire European city full of vice ready to be sampled and you’re gonna have issues…
Unfortunately, for anyone over 20 and with any real-world experience the briefings and films came across like McGruff the Crime Dog or something.