Bush "like a blind man in a roomful of deaf people&quot

Dan, that might be.

I would have more confidence in this motive if indeed, the President or some administration member had actually said it. But they didn’t – they went on about WMD, human rights, sanctions, what not, never once saying that this was just part of a plan to “show terrorist supporting states who’s boss.”

I have problems with an administration that conceals the real reasons for going to war.[/quote]

I suppose we all listen with different filters on our ears (and I include myself in “all”.) What I heard from Bush, consistently, after 9/11 was an overarching message that said “we will not be held hostage to fear, we will not tolerate those who try to harm us or who actively aid those who want to harm us, and we will ensure that something like this never happens again. And we will make sure that message is clear and that it isn’t just talk.” And WMD, sanctions, etc. were all components of the overarching goal. That’s what I heard.

I suppose demonstrating we’re not going to tolerate WMD proliferation would have been more effective if we actually invaded someone who a) had WMD and b) was going to proliferate it.

Even O’Neil now says that this was a continuation of the clinton plan to attack Iraq.

Plans are one thing. I’m sure the US has plans to invade everyone.

Intentions are another.

The only quote I can find so far is…

“From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,” O’Neill said in an interview with the CBS program 60 Minutes.

Which could mean a lot of things. I suppose I’ll have to read the book.

It could indeed, which is what, I think, a lot of people have been saying here. “Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go” is not necessarily all that controversial. Unless, of course, you drape it all kinds of “Bush was looking for the smallest reason to unleash the US Army on Saddam, and the 9/11 response of rooting out terror regimes is just a pretense” rhetoric. And that the most damning evidence dragged out on all of this ends up being a fairly innocuous document, ends up making O’Neill look bad.

So he clarified it as continuing to work for non-invasion regime change? Some wiggle room there, but it’d make me feel a lot better.

Edit: Anonymous Bush official leaks confirmation! The plot thickens!

Bet it’s Powell.

I guess I my filter had holes in it. I heard what you said, but with respect to Iraq specifically, I also heard that Iraq had WMD, and that the Iraq government was actively supporting terrorist groups. I heard Bush cabinet members say Iraq was close to a nuclear bomb, and that Iraq had stores of chemical weapons that could rain down on on neighboring countries. I guess I sort of glossed over the philosophical overaching message in light of the specifics that they were basing our invasion on.

The problem is, I probably would have been OK with going after him based on the overarching message. Saddam was a nasty guy, and the US shoud take moral stands. Unfortunately, I doubt we would have taken the moral stand if he had been the sadistic leader of a tiny country in the middle of Africa that had nothing but sand and poverty.

Brad Delong has the entire relevant section of the book:

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/000015.html

Reads like “find any way at all to get rid of him”, and most definitely not sanctions. Tenet says prospects for a coup aren’t good. Powell says they don’t want to replace a bad guy with another bad guy - which sounds anti-coup to me. They talk about rebuilding the 1991 millitary coalition. Doesn’t leave a whole lot of other options.

They were probably trying to find some “military on the cheap” thing like arming Chabali for a Bay of Goats-style thing. Hard to tell, though, as the Bush administration has a history of making people renounce telling the truth (see: Diullio).

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/

Greenspan privately saying the tax cut without some kind of trigger in case of downturn/deficit was “horrible fiscal policy” is funny.

What does he mean by “trigger”?
(I’ve just signed away what little credibility I’ve got left on this forum :( )

Automatically scale back the tax cuts in event of impending fiscal doom.

Dan, using your own logic would you say rogue regimes feel more or less threatened in today’s climate and would you say they feel more or less compelled to stockpile and use WMD. Would you say the historical trends that have lead to radical anti-Western sentiments in the middle east have been slowed or accellerated by American, unilateral, interventionism?

The honest answer is that we really don’t know. Even Rumsfeld conceded in a leaked memo that we don’t have the metrics to judge the success of our war on terror.

Many experts suggest that by alienating our allies, whose populations if not governments fear us more than radical Islam, we’ve harmed our intelligence gathering operations in Europe, Africa and Asia. The stress on the war on terror as an overriding theme in overt foreign relations has also allowed countries like China, the neocon boogyman, to steal a march on us by focusing on looking friendly and opening up new trading partnerships in Asia while we scare the crap out of the region and strongarm already authoritarian regimes to crack down even more on the radical Muslim elements in their populations rather than encourage more open and legitimate forms of government and law enforcement.

One can see the rationale behind neocon strategic thinking and still disagree with it. Certain of the formative players themselves, their private commerical deals (Perle comes to mind but Cheney is also suspect) and political sympathies with governments outside the U.S. (Wolfowitz, Perle and others have been paid consultants for Likud in the past) cast any pure reasoning in doubt.

Brian - that was a superb post. Got me thinking about some aspects of this I hadn’t considered before.

Dan, using your own logic would you say rogue regimes feel more or less threatened in today’s climate and would you say they feel more or less compelled to stockpile and use WMD.

A) Paradoxically, less threatened.*

B) Thus less compelled.

Would you say the historical trends that have lead to radical anti-Western sentiments in the middle east have been slowed or accellerated by American, unilateral, interventionism?

As I type these words, thousands of reformist candidates for Iran’s upcoming elections are shutting down the Majlis with a sit-in to protest the disqualification of over 4,000 candidates by order of the ruling ayatollahs. This morning, Grand Ayatollah Khomeini took the unprecedented step of “asking” the Guardian Council to “review” its ruling. (This will be the same kind of backpedaling “review” that resulted in the freeing of a dissident whose imprisonment sparked riots last year.)

Yesterday in southern Iraq, Ayatollah al-Sistani iterated a call for “one-person, one-vote” direct elections to determine a new Iraqi government. He explicitly called for a constitutional form of government, and again made clear his opposition to the imposing of shar’ia.

The “historical trend” that produces anti-western terrorism is the lack of real politics in the Arab world: lacking any means for expressing its dissastisfaction through legitimate, modern politics, many people of the region turned to the only outlet available to them, namely virulent politicized Islam. (We could go on to argue the origins of the specific anti-Americanism in this Islam, and the “historic trend” of Arab governments quite deliberately fanning it as a way to redirect the masses’ anger from their own door.)

What is quite clear is the movement toward direct elections, popular democracy, and simple empowerment of the region’s populations in helping decide their own destinies. This is the great “historical trend” of the age, in the Middle East as elsewhere.

The honest answer is that we really don’t know. Even Rumsfeld conceded…we don’t have the metrics to judge…

Fair enough. But we do know one thing: our decades of cuddly relationships with the region’s dictatorial regimes resulted in catastrophe on our own shores. It’s now incumbent on us to “drain the swamp” of virulently politicized Islam, and this means doing all we can to build momentum in the region away from despotism and toward political accountability.

(Quiz: What is the world’s largest and poorest Muslim population? The answer is Indonesia. Yet that country has not produced the kind of terror that even a few dozen middle-class Saudis have generated. Why? Because Indonesia, for all its ills, is a direct democracy – the people are presented no Western bugaboo for which to blame all their woes.)

has also allowed countries like China, the neocon boogyman, to steal a march on us by focusing on looking friendly and opening up new trading partnerships in Asia…

Interesting you mention this. It’s actually one of the most welcome benefits of the new post-9/11 internationalism – it’s provided the opportunity for China to do what it has long sought to do, namely to get out of the bad-guy business and establish itself as a partner for peace and trade in Asia. The new U.S.-Chinese rapprochement post-9/11 may well avert a military showdown over Taiwan. But anyway…

One can see the rationale behind neocon strategic thinking and still disagree with it.

Amen. And your points about neocon double-dipping are well observed – my first executive order as president would be to explicitly ban U.S. policymakers from profiting abroad for a period of at least 10 years after their service. (I’d even go farther, ordering major restrictions on the revolving door between high government office and related corporate enterprise.)

[size=2]*i.e. the “threat” that motivated WMD proliferation is assuaged by public and verified non-proliferation commitments. It is made clear to Libya that it has nothing to fear from the west, so long as it lets us verify that it’s out of the WMD business. More to the point, carrots come with the stick – as I type these words, representatives of the Libyan government (a government which as recently as 1989 had conducted terror bombings against French airliners and German nightclubs) are sitting down with EU officials to arrange new political and economic links with the European Union. Paradoxically, as is often the case in strategic relations, the assurances/benefits of playing ball create a new environment in which weaponization is counterproductive to a nation’s best interests.**[/size]

[size=2]**There is a reason that South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine, Khazakstan, and Belarus all surrendered their nuclear weapons and/or nuclear weapons programs – the security/economic benefits of disavowing nukes far outweighed the perceived benefit of having those weapons.[/size]

[quote=“Daniel Morris”]

Interesting you mention this. It’s actually one of the most welcome benefits of the new post-9/11 internationalism – it’s provided the opportunity for China to do what it has long sought to do, namely to get out of the bad-guy business and establish itself as a partner for peace and trade in Asia. The new U.S.-Chinese rapprochement post-9/11 may well avert a military showdown over Taiwan. But anyway…

Don’t get too ahead of yourself.

[quote=“Daniel Morris”]

(Quiz: What is the world’s largest and poorest Muslim population? The answer is Indonesia. Yet that country has not produced the kind of terror that even a few dozen middle-class Saudis have generated. Why? Because Indonesia, for all its ills, is a direct democracy – the people are presented no Western bugaboo for which to blame all their woes.)
[/size]
Perhaps the Bali bombing wasn’t a 9/1, but it certainly appears to indicate that some elements of the Indonesian populance blames the western bugaboo, and are prepared to take violent action against it. Maybe the shorter reach of the Indonesian terrorism is due to lack of funding rather than lack of desire.

Agreed- look at Indonesia and you do not see a smiling happy nation of Islamic types singing Kumbyah around the camp fire. It is only because it is continually at war with separatists that this nation has not looked outwards. And thanks for not remembering the Bali bombing- 187 people killed means nothing if they’re not American, huh?

Actually, the Bali bombing was perpetrated by the Jemaa Islammiya group, a Qaeda offshoot that migrated from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Malaysia and thence to Indonesia. Imam Samudra, the Bali cell leader now in custody for the resort bombing, is a graduate of the Afghan Qaeda training camps.

As I type these words, thousands of reformist candidates for Iran’s upcoming elections are shutting down the Majlis with a sit-in to protest the disqualification of over 4,000 candidates by order of the ruling ayatollahs. This morning, Grand Ayatollah Khomeini took the unprecedented step of “asking” the Guardian Council to “review” its ruling. (This will be the same kind of backpedaling “review” that resulted in the freeing of a dissident whose imprisonment sparked riots last year.)

There is a reason that even Iranian reformers tend to ask the US to keep its distance and vehemently denounce any military posturing by us. One year more than any other, barring possibly the establishment of Israel, has shaped the perception of America in the Middle East and the Muslim psyche: 1953. That was the year in which, for the first time, American intelligence services worked to topple a foreign government - an elected and popular president of the only democracy in the Middle East, Iran. The success of the coup there, which installed an almost reluctant Shah, inspired further operations in other countries which lead to most of the atrocities in Central and South America during the cold war.

When The British approached Truman to retake their oilfields in Iran by fomenting a revolution, of sorts, he turned them down and wondered in his diaries what would become of an America that used ‘European’ methods in its foriegn affairs - the OSS/CIA was a new thing which ran contrary to this President’s vision of America should it be allowed to dabble in kingmaking abroad. Only when a President, surrounded by a cadre of anti-Communist idealogues, was elected did The British find their pitch. They painted the Iranian president as a Communist tool. That was all it took for advisors like Nixon to ‘investigate’ the matter. CIA case officers in Tehran knew which way the wind was blowing and exaggerated reports back to Washington in a situation that reminds one of the reports of pressure placed on intelligence analysts in the modern CIA by the office of Vice President Cheney to interpret facts about Iraq’s WMD and Al Qaeda ties in a certain light, to bring about certain results.

We all know the fallout. The repression of the Shah’s regime and US trained security services lead to an allout revolution and the most powerful revolutionary faction turned out to be that of radical Sh’ia as, as has been noted, the mosque was the only safe refuge for any dissenting voices in these repressive regimes. Radical Sh’ia inspired radical Wahabi, Sunni, muslim movements and those in Saudia Arabia were not only tolerated but encouraged by both the Saudia Royal House and, indeed, the United States Intelligence services. With radical Sunni muslims we had a counter to both radical Sh’ia, a rival sect, and godless communists. We didn’t blink when it came time to fund and train the most radical, and vicious, elements in Afghanistan and foreign Jihadists. Our closest allies were the Saudi Royal family, which rules by theocracy of the most repressive kind, and Pakistan’s corrupt military ruler who was responsible for very atrocious acts and suspected of exporting WMD technology, much as the current scientific community in Pakistan is seen as sympathetic to radical Islamic movements and a prime exporter of nuclear technology. Both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are described by this administration as our allies in the war on terror.

With a track record like this, not to mention our incredible partiality for reasons of domestic politics to Israel, and the support of some of the worst regimes, Egypt is our second largest recipient of foreign aid next to Israel, is it at all surprising that America is seen as a very unlikely bringer of liberation to the Middle East? Even if our intentions were pure it will be a next to impossible sale. And when oil is at issue, as it surely is, our intentions will be under a microscope. We aren’t looking very good.

Even genuine democratic reformers don’t want to be associated with us.

Yesterday in southern Iraq, Ayatollah al-Sistani iterated a call for “one-person, one-vote” direct elections to determine a new Iraqi government. He explicitly called for a constitutional form of government, and again made clear his opposition to the imposing of shar’ia.

You do understand al-Sistani’s motivations, of course? Iraq’s Sh’ia majority, approximately 60 percent of the population, has been oppressed for a very long time. With a straight up and down election, winner take all, who gets to make the laws? Sistani, also, is not the only voice of Sh’ia Islam in Iraq. There are young turks and rivals who are much less neutral in their approach to the US and its occupation. These rivals, because they tend to have less domestic support than al-Sistani, often turn to Iran’s clerics for funds and even weapons. Sistani sees that he must deliver Iraq to the Sh’ia population if he’s going to keep his own community together and from fighting each other. Much better to have them fighting the Sunni - which is the inevitable if there are straight elections, or the Americans, which is more likely than most care to admit if the occupational Authority persists in its carefully crafted ‘caucus’ system and a balance of power between factions.

If the Sh’ia do come to rule, will al-Sistani remember his pronouncements uttered to appease the Americans? Even if he does, will he have the power to influence the courts as radical Islamics have done in so-called ‘free’ Afghanistan? Who knows? But I wouldn’t be having a party for the triumph of democracy just yet.

The “historical trend” that produces anti-western terrorism is the lack of real politics in the Arab world: lacking any means for expressing its dissastisfaction through legitimate, modern politics, many people of the region turned to the only outlet available to them, namely virulent politicized Islam. (We could go on to argue the origins of the specific anti-Americanism in this Islam, and the “historic trend” of Arab governments quite deliberately fanning it as a way to redirect the masses’ anger from their own door.)

What is quite clear is the movement toward direct elections, popular democracy, and simple empowerment of the region’s populations in helping decide their own destinies. This is the great “historical trend” of the age, in the Middle East as elsewhere.

I suspect you’re right about the root causes here. But is more of the same, foriegn military intervention and manipulation by intelligence services, really going to bring about positive results? Somehow, I tend to be much more skeptical. I suspect there are remedies but they are less dramatic and short-term than an invasion and a staged handover of power to what may, but more likely may not, be a rickety democratic regime. The world needs to come together and decide how to handle these problems as a lawful community of nations. One county with the power to impose its vision on others by threat, violence or subterfuge, and the demonstrable desire to do so, is exhibiting at best hubris and at worst the same tendancies that have lead to some of the worst episodes in world history. And its record is less than blemishless or confidence inspiring in many cases.

Interesting you mention this. It’s actually one of the most welcome benefits of the new post-9/11 internationalism – it’s provided the opportunity for China to do what it has long sought to do, namely to get out of the bad-guy business and establish itself as a partner for peace and trade in Asia. The new U.S.-Chinese rapprochement post-9/11 may well avert a military showdown over Taiwan. But anyway…

I’d rather get back to the good old days when we were seen as the good trading partners with a vision for a future and folks in the region were scared of China. But anyway…

Brian Rucker wrote:
There is a reason that even Iranian reformers tend to ask the US to keep its distance and vehemently denounce any military posturing by us.

Oh? Let’s let Khomeini’s grandson illuminate us, by way of a conversation with Salon:

“Now we have had 25 years of a failed Islamic revolution in Iran, and the people do not want an Islamic regime anymore.”

…I asked him what he would like to see happen, and his reply this time was very terse and did not require any Quranic scriptural authority or explication. The best outcome, he thought, would be a very swift and immediate American invasion of Iran.

It hurt me somewhat to have to tell him that there was scant chance of deliverance coming by this means. He took the news pretty stoically (and I hardly think I was telling him anything he did not know). But I was thinking, wow, this is what happens if you live long enough. You’ll hear the ayatollah’s grandson saying, not even “Send in the Marines” but “Bring in the 82nd Airborne.”

The U.S. is deeply culpable for the fall of Mossadeq and the rise of SAVAK. We should and ought to formally apologize to reform-minded Iranians for the conduct of our foreign policy toward their country. But fully half the population of Iran is under the age of 25 and has never known anything but the backward misrule of the ayatollahs. I suspect there would be great exuberance in Teheran if Hassan Khomeini somehow got his wish.

http://66.34.243.131/iran/html/article1189.html

Didn’t we recently invade a country based on the ludicrous rosy scenarios of an exile?