Bush takes a firm stance on tribal sovereignty

[Linoleum]

@Chet

Quick on his feet? It took him 7 minutes to think of what to do after he was told America was under attack. This is just more evidence of that same sharp mind.

Uh-oh.

KERRY: I was in the Capitol. We’d just had a meeting – we’d just come into a leadership meeting in Tom Daschle’s office, looking out at the Capitol. And as I came in, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon. And then word came from the White House, they were evacuating, and we were to evacuate, and so we immediately began the evacuation.

9:03 a.m. second plane hits WTC
9:43 a.m. plane hits Pentagon

[Andrew_Mayer]

[rant]Yeah, time is a funny thing when THERE’S NOTHING YOU CAN DO BECAUSE YOU AREN’T THE PRESIDENT.

See we were all stunned and kind of freaked out because we weren’t in charge.

But when you are, when every moment counts, time dilates the other way. You can do an amazing amount of things, because it’s YOUR JOB TO LEAD THE COUNTRY, and everyone is waiting for you to take command.
[/rant]

Do you honestly think that if Kerry had been our commander in chief that day he would have spent the time reading a children’s book? Because if you do I’m going to have to admit that I have grave doubts about your ability to judge human character.

[Brian_Rucker]

I think there might be a difference between being, essentially, a bystander and being The President.

Another way to consider this is the fact that nobody really needed to talk to Bush for seven minutes. Not an essential part of the loop it seems. What does that tell you?

[Nick_Walter]

This is the first time I’ve heard any allegations that Bush reacted poorly or too slowly on 9/11. It sounds like complete poppycock to me.

The only circumstance I can imagine in which the reaction time of the president needs to be a matter of minutes is nuclear war. Everythign else he can take his time on, because the lower level reactions are automatic procedure. The president could have gone into paralyzed trance and cried for his mommy on 9/11 and not a single additional life would have been saved at the WTC. There are a lot of levels of administration lower than the president and those were the people who needed to do their jobs (and did do their jobs) on 9/11.

[Brian_Rucker]

Think about it.

Would your response be to sit there and act like nothing was going on or would you, just as a matter of gut instinct and out of a sense of obligation excuse yourself and get into the huddle? His aides and spokesmen try to paint it as his attempt to project strength and calm. By sitting through a reading of “My Pet Goat.” Somehow that just doesn’t play for me.

I tend to agree that nothing would have really changed either way. It really goes more to character, IMHO.

[Jason_McCullough]

@Linoleum

[quote=Chet]Quick on his feet? It took him 7 minutes to think of what to do after he was told America was under attack. This is just more evidence of that same sharp mind.

Uh-oh.

KERRY: I was in the Capitol. We’d just had a meeting – we’d just come into a leadership meeting in Tom Daschle’s office, looking out at the Capitol. And as I came in, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon. And then word came from the White House, they were evacuating, and we were to evacuate, and so we immediately began the evacuation.

9:03 a.m. second plane hits WTC
9:43 a.m. plane hits Pentagon[/quote]

Erm, what’s wrong with this?

[Linoleum]

@Andrew_Mayer

Do you honestly think that if Kerry had been our commander in chief that day he would have spent the time reading a children’s book? Because if you do I’m going to have to admit that I have grave doubts about your ability to judge human character.

Please, you have those anyway, I don’t believe Bush is the epitome of evil.

There are far stupider things than Bush, or Kerry could have done than continue reading for a couple minutes before more information is available. Do you expect a President who can tear off their clothes and fly off into the air clad in spandex? Yes, a President needs to make high-level meta decisions at times, but that requires time and information. I suppose Dubya should have gibbered like a chimp and ordered DEFCON 2.

What could Bush or anyone have done to get information to them faster, scream at aides?

Whatever information there was in those first seven minutes obviously wasn’t alarming enough to the Secret Service.

This is fucking silly. Constructing a fantasyland of crisis response and information processing capability doesn’t change the limits of reality. As is the suggestion that being President magically increases a person’s capacity to make decisions and manage crisis.

[beecubed]

@Linoleum

This is fucking silly. Constructing a fantasyland of crisis response and information processing capability doesn’t change the limits of reality. As is the suggestion that being President magically increases a person’s capacity to make decisions and manage crisis.

i don’t think anyone is saying that becoming president automatically gives you a bonus to your decision making abilities. i think what they are getting at is that we’d like to elect someone who is a good decision maker in the first place.

[John_Many_Jars]

@Linoleum

What could Bush or anyone have done to get information to them faster, scream at aides?

I guess “My Pet Goat” was as good a place to look as any.

[chet]

This is the first time I’ve heard any allegations that Bush reacted poorly or too slowly on 9/11. It sounds like complete poppycock to me.

I paraphrase Bill Clinton, “When people have information, democrats win”

To not be aware of this issue takes you out of the running for having anything else valid to say. That is like bitching about Doom 3’s graphics when you are blind.

And Linoleum, those few minutes could have been the difference between the Pentagon being hit or not.

Chet

[Andrew_Mayer]

@Linoleum

Please, you have those anyway, I don’t believe Bush is the epitome of evil.

Neither do I. I just believe that Bush is a totally selfish actor, and that he has the motivation and mindset of a petulant 15 year old male who thinks he knows everything. I’ve formed this opinion over time by watching by putting it up as a hypothesis and watching Bush prove it true over and over again.

If you have a theory that explains his actions more accurately (storming off stages, keeping out dissenters, controlling, mocking, avoiding confilict, etc. etc.) I’d love to hear it.

There are far stupider things than Bush, or Kerry could have done than continue reading for a couple minutes before more information is available.

Except that’s not what happened. Bush chose to go into that classroom, and chose to avoid finding out more information as it came in.

Do you expect a President who can tear off their clothes and fly off into the air clad in spandex?

No. Do you often take things to illogical extremes to try and make a point?

Yes, a President needs to make high-level meta decisions at times, but that requires time and information. I suppose Dubya should have gibbered like a chimp and ordered DEFCON 2.

See my previous question.

What could Bush or anyone have done to get information to them faster, scream at aides?

Left the classroom and been fully available for incoming information, ad-hoc organization, and focused decision making during a developing crisis. This isn’t tough stuff to figure out… it’s basic command and control.

This is fucking silly. Constructing a fantasyland of crisis response and information processing capability doesn’t change the limits of reality. As is the suggestion that being President magically increases a person’s capacity to make decisions and manage crisis.

Being a leader at the center of a crisis does give you certain powers if you’re unafraid to use them.

In the end it’s as simple as this: Real leaders lead. In some it’s an instinct, in others it’s learned, but it’s easy to see the earmarks of a good one. Make all the excuses you want for the guy, but his actions speak louder than your words.

Take a quick look at Richard Clark’s book. His response is a good example of what I’m talking about.

[Nick_Walter]

@Chet

This is the first time I’ve heard any allegations that Bush reacted poorly or too slowly on 9/11. It sounds like complete poppycock to me.

I paraphrase Bill Clinton, “When people have information, democrats win”

To not be aware of this issue takes you out of the running for having anything else valid to say. That is like bitching about Doom 3’s graphics when you are blind.

And Linoleum, those few minutes could have been the difference between the Pentagon being hit or not.

Chet

You should start a conspiracy theory website. You’ve got that whacked out nutjob logic down to a T.

But for the sake of clarify, allow me to ammend my statement.

@Nick Walter (Revised)

I’ve still never heard any sane or credible allegations that Bush reacted poorly or too slowly on 9/11. It sounds like complete poppycock to me.

[Linoleum]

@Andrew_Mayer

Left the classroom and been fully available for incoming information, ad-hoc organization, and focused decision making during a developing crisis. This isn’t tough stuff to figure out… it’s basic command and control.

We’re just going to disagree here. One of the fundamental problems on the leading edge of such situations is either lack of information, or too much low-value information, often conflicting with itself. Given the nature of the event and the inherent information processing and communication lag overhead, my perspective is that Bush or whoever might have been President might as well have finished reading because the situation or background for them to be useful just isn’t in place yet. To me, the relevant question is what did Bush communicate, decide and do in the first twelve hours?

@Chet

And Linoleum, those few minutes could have been the difference between the Pentagon being hit or not.

Utter bullshit. Pre 9/11, the Air Force and the rest of the US Government was incapable of that kind of response in that kind of timeframe.

[chet]

Why? Because they were all waiting on the president, but he was waiting to see if jack and jill were going to find the pail. The attack was not complete when Bush was informed, how would a real leader have handled it? We will never know. But you are saying a flashlight on a weapon in Doom3 cannot exist, because john carmack did not put it there.

Nick, so sitting reading with the kids for 7 minutes after being told the nation is underatack did or did not happen?

Chet

[John_Reynolds]

The real thing that bothers me about these 7 minutes is that the American public can’t see the video unless it goes to see F9/11. People should be able to view this clip, regardless of how they feel about it.

[Ben]

Chet- Why don’t you ask Mayer how Kerry would’ve handled it? It seems he knows well enough to call into question other people’s ability to judge the character of people they’ve never met.

What could Bush have done to prevent the Pentagon plane from hitting?

[Andrew_Mayer]

@Linoleum

We’re just going to disagree here. One of the fundamental problems on the leading edge of such situations is either lack of information, or too much low-value information, often conflicting with itself. Given the nature of the event and the inherent information processing and communication lag overhead, my perspective is that Bush or whoever might have been President might as well have finished reading because the situation or background for them to be useful just isn’t in place yet.

While I can accept your point of view, I don’t agree with your conclusion. Don’t you think there could be a more high quality response than doing nothing at all? Given the entire spectrum of things that a President can do in a time of extreme crises is that really an acceptable response? Even over just telling people that it’s cool, you’ll wait, but get me best info as soon as possible? Because to my mind, no matter how noisy the situation may be it’s not acceptable be in a classroom behind a book.

In fact, if you know nothing, isn’t it incumbent on you to be ready for anything? Prepping options, checking alternatives, anything to try and save lives and be ready when the moment comes to act.

Is this what you’d choose to do if you were in his place?

[Linoleum]

@Chet

Why? Because they were all waiting on the president, but he was waiting to see if jack and jill were going to find the pail. The attack was not complete when Bush was informed, how would a real leader have handled it? We will never know. But you are saying a flashlight on a weapon in Doom3 cannot exist, because john carmack did not put it there.

It’s nice that you can wave your arms around and make Doom 3 analogies rather than stopping to think at all about the plausibility of what you are saying. Have you researched the timeline at all? Looked at the standing procedures and seen the postmortem detail of the fuckups between the FAA, NORAD and the Air Force? What you desire is a psychic, not a president.

[awdougherty]

I never really blamed Bush for those moments, I was just completely surprised that the Secret Service didn’t have him doing something.

The way I see it, on these little excursions, I bet the President gets directed around by people who are there to make sure it goes smoothly. So Bush gets the info, but what really is the appropriate response in that classroom?

In my mind, the correct response is for the Secret Service to guarantee the safety of the President. Maybe that was going on behind the scenes. For the President, if I were in that position, it would be to politely interrupt the reading and give an improptu statement as to why I had to leave. But I don’t think Bush’s response to wait for advisors/security/someone to figure out where to go (since he wasn’t allowed to return to the White House) was so terrible. It’s just not what I would have done, but then again, I’m not a bad impromptu speaker and Bush basically is.

[BrewersDroop]

@awdougherty

In my mind, the correct response is for the Secret Service to guarantee the safety of the President.

Anyone else get a mental image of dozens of Secret Service agents – all identical, like Agent Smith in the Matrix – rushing into the classroom, guns drawn, protectively piling on Bush while the little kids run around screaming in terror?

No? Probably just me then.