Cancel Culture

[Thrag]

So cancel culture isn’t the bullying and mob justice itself but the thing that causes it? Your definition is at severe odds with Andy’s.

Okay then, given it’s the cause, what’s the solution.

[Timex]

@Thrag

So cancel culture isn’t the bullying and mob justice itself but the thing that causes it?

No, I think it actually is that… But some here think that such justice is warranted and justified against targets they dislike. They them have a problem when such tactics are then applied against people they don’t already dislike.

[Andy_Bates]

@scottagibson

Because I don’t want to be subjected to all your hand-waving distractions! I asked you nicely several times to suggest solutions, but all you did was prattle on about how people were preventing you from doing that.

I never said that anyone was preventing me from talking about solutions. What I said was, every time you bring up “This is nothing new”, you are dismissing this as a problem which even needs a solution at all. And based on the last half-day of posts, people seem to be more interested in discussing “Is this a problem at all?” than “Is there a way to solve this?” And that’s fine if that’s where the discussion goes, but I was just pointing it out in your case.

@scottagibson

So I put you on ignore, and asked people to tell me when you offered solutions. Nobody told me so, but you claimed you did — though without referencing them, which is another sort of hand-waving distraction.

If you put me on ignore, you don’t get to complain when I don’t repost things at your beck and call.

@scottagibson

Still, I went and found them, and — unless I missed something — there was basically nothing there. So now, instead of defending the suggestions — things that already exist and don’t seem to solve the problem — you’re back to complaining about how I’m stopping you from doing that.

You say you want to talk about solutions, but when I suggest solutions, you dismiss them as “there was basically nothing there.” And once again, I never complained that you’re stopping me; I pointed out that if you disengage from the discussion by putting me on Ignore, you lose the right to swan in and complain that I didn’t address your complaints.

[Thrag]

You are bringing a whole other element into the discussion now and a whole set of assumptions. I’ll let you and Andy hash out a definition.

My personal belief has nothing to do with who harassers or harassees are but that people use the term inconsistently. Something you seem to agree with. I thus conclude it’s become meaningless as best and counterproductive at worst. Something seemingly proved over and over.

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

I also mentioned obvious ideas like better tools and moderation multiple times, while literally saying the obsession with terming things “cancel culture” detracts from discussing those.

That’s why I tried to come up with a specific, agreed-upon definition of what “cancel culture” is: so we can all agree what we’re talking about and then move on. If we have that, then anytime someone says “I don’t get what cancel culture is anyway!” we can answer it and continue talking about solutions.

So I would love seeing some sort of crowdsourced solutions on Twitter. I think a major problem is unfettered access to creators, so people like Lindsay Ellis are overwhelmed by complaints from random people. I’ve seen people tweet where it says “Only people mentioned can respond to this tweet”, but it seems super rare so I have no idea who has access to those tools or why they’re not used more commonly. But if you had a voting or moderation system, then the bad-faith tweets would never reach the person in the first place. You can’t harass someone if they don’t see your tweets.

[Thrag]

@Andy_Bates

That’s why I tried to come up with a specific, agreed-upon definition of what “cancel culture” is: so we can all agree what we’re talking about and then move on. If we have that, then anytime someone says “I don’t get what cancel culture is anyway!” we can answer it and continue talking about solutions.

And I support any efforts you may make to get that universally accepted in society as the definition. Until then insisting on using the term instead of discussing the actual issues you wished it described remains absurdly counterproductive.

I mean, go take porch monkey back. Good luck with that.

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

My personal belief has nothing to do with who harassers or harassees are but that people use the term inconsistently. Something you seem to agree with. I thus conclude it’s become meaningless as best and counterproductive at worst. Something seemingly proved over and over.

If we’re trying to settle on a definition we can all generally agree on, why does it matter how other people are using it?? The constant distraction seems to be people going “But JK Rowling said she was canceled so who knows what the term means!?!”

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

I mean, go take porch monkey back. Good luck with that.

What the hell man. Way to miss the point.

People will always use terms incorrectly. That’s life. JK Rowling writes an open letter complaining about “cancel culture” when people called her out for her actual opinions. You don’t stop discussing something just because people use the term incorrectly (either accidentally or intentionally to deflect blame).

[scottagibson]

Yes, ignore was the right choice.

[Thrag]

@Andy_Bates

What the hell man. Way to miss the point.

That can be a reply to pretty much everything you have posted in the last few days.

People will always use terms incorrectly. That’s life. JK Rowling writes an open letter complaining about “cancel culture” when people called her out for her actual opinions. You don’t stop discussing something just because people use the term incorrectly (either accidentally or intentionally to deflect blame).

But apparently you do stop discussing them to first insist on using a term you yourself admit is usually misused according to your definition.

[Andy_Bates]

@scottagibson

Yes, ignore was the right choice.

If you’re not interested in participating in the conversation, then yeah, put me on ignore. But you can just do it without making a big performative deal about it, and don’t drop in and complain that I didn’t engage in a one-sided discussion with you.

[Thrag]

Just above Scott did read the solutions you pointed to and directly responded to them. Yet instead of those comments being addressed and a discussion of, for example, what more robust tools to combat harassment would look like, we’re still taking back porch monkey.

[scottagibson]

I really did!

@scottagibson

I saw limit who can reply to you , which already exists, and more robust blocking features , which already exists except for the undefined robust part. Yet we still apparently have cancel culture, so these things are not enough.

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

That can be a reply to pretty much everything you have posted in the last few days.

I’m not the one who threw out a racist term out of left field.

@Thrag

But apparently you do stop discussing them to first insist on using a term you yourself admit is usually misused according to your definition.

If I use “infer” in a sentence, the conversation doesn’t grind to a halt by people going, “People use ‘imply’ and ‘infer’ interchangeably all the time, and it’s confusing that you’re using a term that has no clear definition!”

I believe I have clarified that when I talk about “cancel culture”, I am talking about weaponized online harassment usually by bad-faith actors that is amplified and any apology is not good enough and eventually leads to negative consequences for the person involved. But that’s a lot to type every time, so I’m just using the term “cancel culture” instead.

[Sharpe]

Here are some pics of my personal dinosaur descendants for you folks:

Pinkerton the cockatoo eats a french fry with joy:

Peanut the small parrot eats his namesake:

[Thrag]

@Andy_Bates

I’m not the one who threw out a racist term out of left field.

It’s a quote from Clerks. A character doesn’t like the idea that, in his view, people are using porch monkey wrong. It’s not a racist term. It just means kids hanging out on the porch like he did. It becomes a thing in that he’s “taking it back”.

Clerks II (8/8) Movie CLIP - Porch Monkeys (2006) HD

In your view people misuse the term “cancel culture” are wrong and the definition should be what you say it is. You’re taking it back.

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

Just above Scott did read the solutions you pointed to and directly responded to them.

And then he said he put me back on Ignore. I’m not going to engage in a discussion with someone who has me on ignore.

@Thrag

Yet instead of those comments being addressed and a discussion of, for example, what more robust tools to combat harassment would look like, we’re still taking back porch monkey.

I did address those comments and start a discussion of what more robust tools to combat harassment would look like:

@Andy_Bates

So I would love seeing some sort of crowdsourced solutions on Twitter. I think a major problem is unfettered access to creators, so people like Lindsay Ellis are overwhelmed by complaints from random people. I’ve seen people tweet where it says “Only people mentioned can respond to this tweet”, but it seems super rare so I have no idea who has access to those tools or why they’re not used more commonly. But if you had a voting or moderation system, then the bad-faith tweets would never reach the person in the first place. You can’t harass someone if they don’t see your tweets.

[Thrag]

@Andy_Bates

I believe I have clarified that when I talk about “cancel culture”, I am talking about weaponized online harassment usually by bad-faith actors that is amplified and any apology is not good enough and eventually leads to negative consequences for the person involved. But that’s a lot to type every time, so I’m just using the term “cancel culture” instead.

I believe that I have clarified that when I talk about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches I am talking about peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

Seriously, for god’s sake, get past the insistence over terminology and just say whatever it is you want to say about the type of harassment you are talking about. I mean clearly in some ways nothing is stopping you from saying whatever the heck comes into your head. Why can’t you get past this weird insistence over terminology?

I mean at this point I’m just hear for the dadaist aspects. Though if ever a discussion pops up about how to make social media better in regards to this type of harassment I’d be happy to read it.

[Dan_Theman]

@Andy_Bates

If we’re trying to settle on a definition we can all generally agree on, why does it matter how other people are using it??

The term is a loaded one, carrying the political and cultural baggage of an increasingly combative society. Unnecessarily bringing it into the conversation or focusing on its definition is therefore laden with conversational pitfalls. And yes, I do see the title of the thread.

I believe the notion is to avoid this problem by not bothering with the term, but rather describe the given scenario and address the specific issues at hand.

Mind, there’s a perfectly good academic conversation to be had about the term, but that should be kept apart from those wishing to talk about various news items.

[Andy_Bates]

@Thrag

In your view people misuse the term “cancel culture” are wrong and the definition should be what you say it is. You’re taking it back.

People like Kevin Spacey and JK Rowling complain about “cancel culture” because they’re trying to shift the blame from their own bad actions. I don’t have to agree with that usage, just as a lot of other people disagree with that usage.