I should have made it clear it is Hobbesian “state of nature” I’m referring to, not state of nature in the biological sense.
But does that mean all future Spiderman movies will have him controlled by some government entity? He did sign onto the accords right? So no more vigilantism?
I think the accords are dead. Iron Man, Vision, and War Machine (assuming that someone else dons the suit) have signed. While it is implied that Black Widow signed some of her actions seem to indicate that she doesn’t feel completely bound by it. Black Panther and Spiderman seem to have been brought in to the TeamIronMan posse based on personal connections and a desire to take down Bucky. I saw no signs that either of them signed and it was fairly clear that Black Panther did not agree with the accords. Of course he’s also the only one that might be slightly above the issue as a ruling head of state.
There are plenty of good arguments for TeamIronMan here, so let me try to explain TeamCap.
What Cap is objecting to is the Avengers being used to further political agendas. Putting the Avengers under the purview of the UN means that they can be deployed as a military unit to enforce the UN’s will. Maybe today that’s peacekeeping, maybe tomorrow that’s overthrowing a nation. That’s what gave him pause. Still, he was ready to accept that it was happening and retire.
Then the Bucky incident happened. Cap hasn’t signed the accords, he’s still “free” to act on his own to save his friend. That’s a selfish motivation, but he learned about Bucky as he was leaving the funeral of Peggy Carter, his last connection to his old life. It’s understandable that he didn’t want to see his friend, who he thought he’d lost, get killed for something he was convinced Bucky didn’t do.
Even after that, he’s willing to sign the accords. Until Tony lets slip that Wanda is under house arrest. Now he sees the big picture. The world may be happy to let Hawkeye and Captain America retire if they don’t sign. But, Wanda Maximoff gets no such choice. She either submits or gets imprisoned. Her only crime is existing and being different. It doesn’t help that the guy spearheading this entire thing is the same guy who’s been trying to lock up or kill Bruce Banner for the same reason for years.
Captain America is about personal freedom and doing the right thing. That’s his character’s greatest strength and also his biggest flaw. Doing the right thing means making sure Wanda gets to choose how to live her life, even if that means they’re potentially dealing with her going rogue later.
Duh, go to church, walk around with a Bible, etc. Not really that hard.
There are opposing tendencies that work to ameliorate the situation, for sure; but the fact of monopoly is an extra worry. While market failure (in the economics sense) is certainly possible with private doings, the monopoly nature of government can make a bad situation worse. It’s something to especially watch out for. But we don’t, we’re too entranced by the possibility of using government as a tool to do good with, because we over-estimate its degree of actual functionality (wish-fulfillment fantasy, really).
I think you have a prejudice against government in general.
It’s not a prejudice, it’s a reasoned position.
You see government always
No, not always, as I explained. I’m not so concerned to get rid of government, I recognize that it can be a necessary evil; I’m more concerned to dispel the illusion that it’s necessarily beneficial and functionally effective, if only the right people are in charge (IOW “who should govern?” is the shallower question, the primary question is “why should govern?”).
BUT if think you DO NOT NEED a referee and private individuals will just spontaneously act for their mutual benefit, well, I hope you enjoy state of nature, because your life is likely to be “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”.
The heavy lifting from the Hobbesian state of nature was already done by our biological evolution through various species phases, from microbe to articulate mammal - a lot of ground in terms of spontaneous co-operation based on instincts and memes has already been covered. That gives us a leg up into a Lockean state of nature, where we start from a position of already having a tendency to co-operate, honour promises, etc., etc.
The referee in that case (in the case of being someone chosen by such beings to do something) is more like an employee of the people, or a a hired servant, not in any sense our “master” or “commander”. Our obedience to the referee must be earned (in cases where it’s necessary) by the referee being a good referee; and in any case most of our actions will tend to conform to natural law spontaneously anyway (because we’re already in a Lockean state of nature, as aforesaid). Dirty tackles aren’t the norm.
Enjoyed Civil War tonight a lot, although I could have done with less shaky cam.
Lots of nice touches, including surprise appearances(for those of us who try to avoid spoilers), and hints of the Vision-Scarlet Witch romance.
Of course, the underlying theme was not original, most recently in Superman vs Batman, and IMO, best done in The Incredibles, of all movies.
And based upon their personalities and backrounds, I actually would have expected Cap and Iron Man on the opposite philosophical sides!!
Pretty excited though about The Incredibles II! Bring on the superheroes!
I think it makes complete sense in the context of the MCU and kinda completes the character trajectories initiated in Avengers 1. Tony derided Steve for being a naive soldier who simply follows orders without knowing or wanting to know what’s going on in the bigger picture. It’s then that Steve starts looking into the more shady aspect of SHIELD. Cap 2 already has Steve questioning SHIELD’s plans right from the get-go as he makes it very clear that he’s against Project Insight. Of course, finding out that SHIELD of all organizations has been corrupted by Hydra is what ultimately makes him lose faith in big institutions in general. If an institution can be subverted or even run by the very party they were supposed to fight against, anything goes. He believes that a tight group of individuals can do good whereas the involvement of bureaucracy and complex organizations with vague agendas will ultimately have a negative impact.
Of course, there’s Bucky on top of that. As others already pointed out, there’s a variety of reasons why Steve wants to find and save Bucky. Him believing there’s still his old friend (who, in his opinion, is inherently “good”) in there; Bucky being a soldier (just like Steve) who fell into the enemy’s hands while being on a mission with him and thus must not be left behind and given up; Bucky being the only connection to his roots left after Peggy’s death.
Tony’s always been the loose cannon with a healthy distaste for authorities. Still, there are the recent events, especially the creation Ultron, he may have come to realize that some form of oversight might have prevented that. More importantly, he’s very pragmatic about what’s to come and says as much. It’s clear that he’s not a huge fan of having to report to some bigger institution, but Tony thinks it’s an inevitable thing to happen, and cooperation will enable them to shape or at least influence the new structure. Pragmatism makes it easier for him to compromise, whereas Steve is driven by idealism and his loyalty to an old friend.
Is it just me or was this movie one big excuse to have a bunch of good guys fight each other?
I am tired of Super Hero movies. What is the next trend in Hollywood?
He who is tired of superhero movies is tired of life.
It was one big excuse to have a bunch of good guys fight each other.
Doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy pretty much every moment of it.
Think of a it as a big get to know you movie ahead of a got to fight alongside you to survive movie.
Considering the number of heroes they crammed in there, I thought they did a pretty good job giving everybody an appropriate amount of screen time without it feeling too forced. Without spoiling, there was one character that could have been left completely out of the movie. And Captain America go juuuuust the minimum amount of screen time for it to be called a Captain America movie and not Iron Man 3.5, or Avengers 3. Winter Soldier is still my favorite of the bunch, bu I’m looking forward to the next movie, considering this one did a prety good job of showing that they mostly know how to handle this many characters at once.
Where were Thor and the Hulk?
Ha. Probably the cutting room floor. It would have needed 3 hrs to cram any more in there.
I just saw the movie. I really loved how the continued their trend of making even the more “mundane” heroes badass. Falcon, in particular, got elevated in this move. I loved the VW bug scene and Ant-man.
Ant man got no respect… Everyone disrespected him,
On Ant-man, I’m not sure if it’s been brought up in the thread, but. Wouldn’t he have the strength of a normal man in giant form?
Let’s get some quick-hitters to balance out the poli-sci above.
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[/li][li]These movies do well with characters but not with stories. I wonder if Coogler’s Black Panther will be able to combat that – he did a good job with being story-focused in Creed.
[/li][li]Too many underground facilities in the Captain America films.
[/li][li]Having the civilian casualties happen in Africa was a good way to bring in Black Panther… I was wondering if they were going to go for the school explosion.
[/li][li]William Hurt has aged very well. RDJ was de-aged very well.
[/li][li]They do a surprisingly weak job of making RDJ look like he’s actually wearing that suit when the helmet comes off.
[/li][li]ScarJo has a great stunt double.
[/li][li]Cap gets less interesting the further they stray from the man-out-of-time angle.
[/li][li]Choreographers do a great job of making the long falls clumsy and painful looking. These heroes hit just about every branch on the way down.
[/li][li]I was having intense flashbacks to Bourne 3 during the car chase, between the German (?) police sirens and the tunnel.
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