Balkanisation and ethno-nationalism both belong in the bin of history, so not much sympathy for the Catalans here.
Ethno nationalism is not one-sided in this issue. That’s part of the complexity. Repression of national identities in Spain is too closely linked to our dark recent history and there are undercurrents of that in a lot of what’s going on and what I’m seeing in the streets. The main criticism to be aimed at Catalan nationalists is their suppression of non-nationalist Catalans and the lack of a voice and options they give them (polls suggest they are more numerous than secessionists). Which indeed generates few sympathies from me. But the rhetoric of a great united Spain I am hearing a lot lately comes from a very dark sort of nationalism too.
It’s hard to be a moderate in this issue.
I’m all for a European federation followed by a world government (a utopian dream, I know) This is a step backwards.
Spain’s response to this was the worst, leading to a situation that is eerily similar to how the Yugoslav Wars started (substituting Croatia with Catalonia).
From my understanding, it won’t even require an anti-secessionist stance from any other EU members, as Spain could just veto an inependent Catalonia joining the EU. So a complete secession cannot really be in Catalonia’s interest either, as the region’s relative economic strength will be greatly weakened if they lose access to the common market.
The government of the PP persists in its lies. It continues to deny what is obvious to the international press and to everyone who has seen the images of the police crackdown on October 1 in Catalunya: that there was violence, brutality, viciousness.
For many years, the right-wing in Spain has created a false and distorted image of what is happening in Catalunya. They speak of totalitarianism, of a broken society, of a population cowed by violent separatists. Even the words they choose are not neutral. “Seditious” and “separatist” are not descriptive terms but rather are highly charged. They begin by dehumanizing the other with these words … and they end by beating elderly women in the doors of schools, and calling this behaviour “professionalism”, “proportionality” and “defence of democracy”.
When there are two very different versions of the same reality, it is best to analyse the facts.It is a fact that on October 1, 844 people were injured. One of them has lost an eye…proportionality? What is proportional to an eye? What is proportional to pushing a woman down stairs? To grabbing elderly women by the hair? To the fear that children felt and still feel at seeing their schools damaged?
I am not in favour of independence for Catalunya, and I do not support unilateral actions. I have said this many times and I say it again. I am very critical of the government of Puigdemont and I do not like how things have been handled. But there is something which rises above our individual opinions and which should unite all of us who believe in and defend rights, freedom and democracy: the use of state violence against a peaceful population cannot be tolerated.Today the government spokesman has called the Catalans who demonstrated against the police repression “Nazis”. Again, the words … Nazis? Is Mr. Hernando aware of what the Nazis did? Did the Nazis demonstrate peacefully for years to secure the right to vote? Did the Nazis protect schools while hundreds of police beat them? The thousands of men and women, young and old, who today have filled the streets chanting “We are people of peace” are really “Nazis”? Using the word “Nazi” so carelessly is an insult to the victims of Nazism and Mr. Hernando should be ashamed.
If what I am writing manages to cross informational borders, if people outside of Catalunya read it and want to know what is happening here, I would respectfully ask them to attempt to analyse this conflict with an open mind. I would dare them to question what is being said by government spokespeople, what is being denied and, even worse, what is being justified.
We are facing a state crisis without precedent and I am concerned about the complete impasse in the relationship between the Catalan and Spanish governments. But what would be truly tragic would be if we allow the many ties of fraternity and affection that unite us, the people, to be fractured. We cannot allow this.
We have been hit. We have been hurt. It will not be easy to forget this. We need your support.What has happened violates the fundamental rights and freedoms of all of us: Catalans, Spaniards, Europeans…Today it is Catalunya, but tomorrow it may be anywhere if we accept this and it goes unpunished. If we justify it, we are lost. Everyone loses. Democracy loses.
Our fathers, mothers and grandparents who together fought for democracy would not forgive us. For them, for their legacy, let us join together to save democracy, to remove from their posts those people who ordered this crackdown and who are incapable of seeking political and peaceful solutions. Those in government must listen, must respect the people, must put forth positive proposals and alternatives and, above all, must never act against an unarmed population.
- by mayor of Barcelona Ada Colau
Alas, yet another person who doesn’t understand that just because someone isnt threatening violence doesnt mean they are immune from the use of force from police charged with keeping the peace.
They knew what they were doing was illegal. They knew it without a shadow of a doubt. However, they felt they were special enough that they could commit illegal actions without being gainsaid, and certainly not opposed.
When they were informed their illegal actions would not be tolerated and (tens of?) thousands of police were being drafted in to maintain law, order and the peace, they still insisted that they were special and could ignore a legal system that is regarded as ‘just’ and a political system that is regarded as being free, fair and democratic.
When they were met with police instructions they, ignored them. When they were met with police using force (almost entirely proportionate by all accounts) they cried out how they were peaceful, they were just, they were being democratic and the tens of thousands of police charged with being reactive only (I.e. react to illegal actions, don’t proactively police) were brutal oppressors even though neither Madrid nor the Police wanted to be there.
They and all like them are hypocrites at best. Any society that accepts a small susbset unilaterally deciding that they can disregard the political and legal system because they are ‘special’ is a society that will not last.
The referendum was aggressive. It was never violent but it was inherently aggressive, antagonistic and provactive. Catalonian politicians and Catalonian voters are far more responsible for any injuries than Madrid or the Spanish Police and I can’t imagine to ECJ, ICJ or even any national Supreme Court disagreeing with that.
I agree.
I don’t hint most people disagree with it. It doesn’t make the government response less stupid, though. They had the chance to defuse a situation that the other side could not defuse anymore, although admittedly by their own fault (I fear the issue has reached critical mass). Instead they decided to allow the tensions to rise even more get get really close to the point of no return (if we are not there yet).
That is, I don’t think the secessionist are rational actors, but since Sunday I’m pretty sure the government is neither. Pushing 20% of the population towards open political conflict while there was still room for negotiation might not be as bad as radicalizing said population to start with, but doesn’t make you right either.
And now we get this:
Absolutely. Though I sympathise with why people in the Spanish government may have thought this was the right course of action, I personally believe it was the wrong way to confront the separatists (if a confrontation was desired).
As for those seeking independence being wholly peace loving and completely free of any sort of responsibility or guilt for the violence that has happened:
Puigdemont has already warned that the the triggering of the article would be the Spanish government’s “ultimate mistake”.
Yes, sounds very democratic, peace loving and unconfrontational.
If the peaceful way doesn’t work, you have to do it the less peacecful way.
That sounds like a rapist’s mantra.
Ugh, don’t be a dumbass.
It’s really complicated. While it’s true the current government dialed back on the progress of Catalonia autonomy (something I can only understand if done out of hubris, since the change had been accepted and promoted by the previous government) and has been less than willing to negotiate or even listen to about the 45% of the Catalonian population (going by real, verifiable election results from less than 2 years ago, now it’s probably closer to 50%) that wants the independence,it is also true that secession-favorable governments have been governing in Catalonia for a long time now, and they have been able to push and market their message, and basically act freely within some constraints. They haven’t been allowed to vote (a mistake, imho) but that’s about it.
The non peaceful way now involves what I suspect is still half the population pushing their agenda of secession (and thus economic and emotional distress) on the other, perhaps slightly larger half that rejects it but is less radicalized and thus less vocal (and silenced by the politics of the Catalonia government in an eerily similar way as the Spanish government silences opinions favorable to Catalonia identity in the rest of Spain) . Supporting Catalonian independence now (with the current divide within its population and lack of democratic guarantees -this last part due also the Spanish government behaviour-) is not the same as supporting their right to decide in a fair and verifiable election (which I’ve done for a long time now, to the point for it being the biggest single issue deciding my vote, and I’m not Catalonian).
Your argument seems to be if a significantly large group of people peacefully break the law in an attempt to do something illegal and the peaceful attempt doesnt work, they can try non-peaceful alternatives.
That’s moronic on many levels.
I suppose you’re a fan of violent pro-life activists to name but one? I mean, they’re breaking a law because they are ‘morally justified’ and form a large subset of the wider population.
There are many examples, let me know how many you’d like.
Catalonians are part of a free and fair democracy (under a constitutional monarchy) and have superior rights to other Spanish citizens. They aren’t a downtrodden, oppressed minority being treated badly by their Spanish master. They don’t have the moral justification for breaking the law that e.g. Kosovo had (you know, ethnic cleansing vs having your own judiciary, education system, police force etc).
Any more absurd analogies to add?
Anyway, you’ve just proven the point. You seem to think no moral justification is good enough to go against the law, but you then admit it’s possible. Which moral justification is good enough is a matter of debate.
The reality is that if those who govern you let you secede, good for you, but if you’re a big enough group of people, you are in a de facto state of nature and you get to decide you’re a nation and what’s “illegal”, provided you have the economic/military clout, political acumen and allies to back it. Besides, if you really are downtrodden and without powerful allies, you will never be independant.
Eventually, other nations will just accept your independence, unless you’re unlucky and you’re “The Republic of China” or something. You don’t see anyone treating Americans as dirty colonist traitors anymore, do you?
I’m not Catalonian, so I don’t know how much heartache those who want independence are willing to go through, but I know self-determination can be gnawing feeling, even if it might not make economic sense. Besides, couldn’t Catalonia eventually join the EU and get Schengen, access to the common market, the works? A barely 50-50 level of support is not much of a mandate to go on, though.
Barely more than 50-50 support was enough to get the UK to start sawing off its knees.
Repeatedly calling analogies absurd yet appearing to be utterly incapable of defending your original point isn’t really a very effective debating tool, just in case you weren’t aware.
Anyway, you’ve just proven the point. You seem to think no moral justification is good enough to go against the law, but you then admit it’s possible. Which moral justification is good enough is a matter of debate.
Alas, it would seem I just proved that you’re incapable of seeing any point beyond the most facile and obvious. You are aware that there is a UN declaration on Human Rights, yes? This declaration has set the basis for decades of legally binding international human rights treaties. It isn’t about my moral justification, or yours, or a Catalonians, and it certainly isn’t ‘a matter of debate’ for anyone with a bit of common sense.
The reality is that if those who govern you let you secede, good for you, but if you’re a big enough group of people, you are in a de facto state of nature and you get to decide you’re a nation and what’s “illegal”
If you were at all familiar with international law, or history (preferably both), you would be aware that outside of colonial contexts - which as already stated, is considered the right to external self-determination and is supported by the UN - that is not the case.
You don’t see anyone treating Americans as dirty colonist traitors anymore, do you?
Again, even a tiny bit of familiarity with the area would have informed you about the right to external self-determination.
Besides, couldn’t Catalonia eventually join the EU and get Schengen, access to the common market, the works?
No, because as already stated, the TFEU guarantees Spain’s territorial integrity.
Thanks for not reading the thread, demonstrably knowing nothing about the topic, yet talking authoritatively about it regardless.
Alas? Facile? In case you weren’t aware?
I really hope I don’t sound that condescending when I post my thoughts.