So you are saying she wasn’t disgusted by what she saw our soldiers doing and being told to do?
This.
That argument would work for Snowden, who knew what he had and parsed it out while concealing things so people weren’t put at risk. Manning just got a bunch of information and then gave it to everyone without even really knowing what any of it was or giving a shit.
A lot of you guys really know Manning pretty well.
That or you are ascribing a lot of unfounded motivation to her actions.
Yes, because of statements like this “She wrote in a statement that the more she had tried to fit in at work, the more alienated she became from everyone around her. The relationship with WikiLeaks had given her a brief respite from the isolation and anxiety.” From the Wikipedia article about her.
There have been numerous accounts about her, she was a messed up kid looking for attention, there was no whistle-blowing or cause to it. It’s not about knowing her, its just reading the accounts about it.
So, I guess you’re saying her punishment should be more harsh because of that. How much more?
You realize she could have served 136 years right?
Well.
Probably not.
As I said, as someone with a clearance, in my opinion she should have been put away for the full 35 years. This isn’t about a poor messed up kid (or about how the military doesn’t know how to deal with a transgender person), this is about what happens when a person agrees to protect classified documents, and then does with them as they want. There are consequences to decisions people make and she should pay for what she did.
I have seen people lose their careers for much less (as in forgetting to lock a safe in a secured area). They were kicked out with an other than honorable discharge that will hang with them forever. For a person to purposely give documents to a foreign national? Throw the book at them. Not only because they deserve it, but to set the example.
I think many of you guys are forgetting about justice for the innocent people killed in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars whose circumstances of death would have been completely unknown save for what Manning did and Wikileaks published.
I’m not even sure why the law comes up in these conversations at all. The US legal system already passed its judgement, the President got to pass his judgement based on all available information, and finally I get to pass my own judgement in this thread that she should have been pardoned ages ago given the atrocious things the leaked material unearthed and the fact there is no credible story (correct me if I am wrong) of someone coming to harm from the leak.
I’m pretty sure they’ve just had it drilled into their heads that classified information is sacrosanct and any leak should be treated with “maximum discretion”.
As a non-military person, I look at it like you, Tim. When our government are acting like shitheels, we need to hold them accountable. It’s what stops our democracy from becoming… something else. Secrets are important but hiding crimes cannot be tolerated. And wars are one of the most fertile grounds for inexcusable actions. Basically, I think the tattler should not be punished more harshly than the person they are tattling on.
And just like everyone else, I wish she’d carefully gone through and extracted all information that could possibly have put someone in danger.
For me that doesn’t matter. She agreed to secure classified documents. Not only did she not do so, she gave them out to a subversive group with little to no consideration to what she was giving out. That is treason. When I signed up for it, I agreed to protect the info given to me. I didn’t agree to secure only the documents I agreed with. If you do not like that info, go through lawful means and/or accept the punishment given.
Isn’t that usually the publisher’s job? From memory she was taking huge dumps of documents relating to the war and putting them on cds labelled “lady gaga” and the like. She probably would have aroused alot of suspicion if she went through each document on her computer and blacked out certain things.
[quote=“LeeAbe, post:51, topic:128062, full:true”]
For me that doesn’t matter. She agreed to secure classified documents. Not only did she not do so, she gave them out to a subversive group with little to no consideration to what she was giving out. That is treason.[/quote]
So you think all whistleblowers belong in jail? Also, unlike Snowden, Manning did accept the verdict of the court by pleading guilty.
In military matters where people agreed to clearances and then gave those materials to foreign groups that are anti-US government? Yes, without a doubt. Manning did accept it and then it became the poor transgender kid in a military prison story. Don’t care, serve your time.
But I am no fan of Snowden either. I took the vow, and don’t look favorably on people who don’t keep their word and then give the info to foreign groups and flee. I kind of get Snowden, but stand up for your beliefs instead of fleeing to a country that would kill you if you did that to them.
Under a Trump regime, plenty of people are going to be killed. You will get what you want.
Where did I say I wanted that?
This is a country that will kill you for doing that to them. Quadruply so under Trump.
That’s why Manning and Snowden are still alive.
Guantanamo Bay itself showed how political ‘prisoners’ could be treated inhumanely for decades, and it also seemed a slim chance Manning would survive a Trump presidency considering her current mental state and treatment. If the sentence is to be “torture and/or death” at least it should be spelled out clearly. No administration - or Republican politician - would ever stick their neck out for a person at the level of a Snowden had he simply allowed himself to be sacrificed nobly to the system. Moreover at least if he remained out he could audit and edit the data that was released, where if he gave the data to another party who knows what would happen to it. The inhumane treatment of political prisoners since 9/11 has made whistleblowers on this scale a dubious prospect, imo.
Tribal identity uber alles around here, and the most sancrosant identity is patriotism. There’s essentially no way (that I can see) to release the kind of information Snowden released and not be considered an unforgivable crime by a not insignificant portion of the public and government, and your own incarceration and worse would not end up validating your message, instead you’d be at best released near death to write a book for the next generation to read, most of whom have never learned your name. What Snowden did was essentially political and our politics today has little space for such actions and such characters and not expect them to be destroyed.
Gitmo is whole different can of worms and irrelevant in this case. Manning is an American found guilty of a crime and sentenced just like anyone else would be. He is not a political prisoner, which implies he was locked up for political reasons. He broke the law. Why should he be treated differently because he is transgender? Since when are prisons supposed to be nice places where everyone’s mental state is considered? If you think they should, than this goes way beyond Manning and is a whole other argument.
He had his chance to edit the data. He did not care about that. He just took it home and gave everything to Wikileaks. This is not Whistle-blowing, this is just the careless release of data he was entrusted with. Again, read any of the interviews with the kid, he really didn’t care about whistle blowing until he was caught, before then he was just a kid looking for acceptance.
Anyway, your original argument was that he was unjustly accused. There was nothing unjust about it. He was entrusted with classified data and gave it to a foreign national who meant harm to the US government. He didn’t take it home and sort through it. He just copied it and handed it over. That is a crime.
If you want to be a whistle-blower, be careful about what you release and who you release it to. WikiLeaks is probably not a good option. Going to Russia probably isn’t a good idea (and is very hypocritical). If you are a true whistle blower who wants to do good, stand up for it. Release what is needed to prove your point, be prepared to go to court, etc.
Assange not Manning was (considering your sources) unjustly accused of other crimes in order to extradite him. Whether he was running from actual crimes or not it gave the impression that western governments were working in lockstep to arrest document leakers.