Yep, the US government looked really bad. Did anything good come of it (honest question, I don’t know of anything)? Were other governments actually surprised by it other than anti-US groups using it as “see they are just as bad as the rest!”?
I would add it is not about saluting the flag. I am aware the US has its issues. I just don’t think the world is this nice place where we are the only ones up to questionable behavior. There are governments up to far worse that WikiLeaks doesn’t seem to care about.
Well our current president agrees that it was punishment enough, so case closed.
Am I wrong thinking she was charged with espionage, the same thing the Rosenbergs were put to death for? (Honestly I haven’t researched this, so correct me if I am wrong).
Do you think that somehow contradicts my statement? Because it clearly does not.
It’s already been clearly established that Manning DID NOT KNOW what he was releasing. So the idea that they released it as some act of whistleblowing is total bullshit on its face.
One day you might fuck up and leave a safe unlocked, and your attitude will change as to the necessity of such actions.
Guys like Hannsen and Ames are made an example of. To whatever extent deterrent will work for someone in Mannings situation, and it is not much I expect, it has probably.been served.
I know what he did and why, but there’s enough shit in the world it seems without adding more to it.
Given the danger Chelsea Manning put people in, she deserved years in the stockade, and her dishonorable discharge. What she did not deserve was the torture. I consider the commutation as evening out the mistreatment she received, and it’s even.
She really made it harder on trans service members on top of that.
I’ve got news for you if you think this doesn’t actually happen on a daily basis with classified storage. There are (at last count in 2013) about 1.4 million people that have “top secret” or higher clearances in the US government. Many of them include low-level military members charged with safeguarding their unit’s communications equipment and code documents. Part of their daily duties are to check the physical inventory, verify the daily code set, destroy yesterday’s codes, then lock it all up. That last directive gets missed all the time because it’s a damn 19-20 year old kid that doesn’t give a shit about physical security.
No one goes to jail for it. The worst that happens is some disciplinary action like extra-duty and retraining.
You’re the one that hung your hat on “one day you might fuck up and leave a safe unlocked” which I’m pointing out is no big deal in classified handling circles. If you meant to make an issue of @LeeAbe becoming more empathetic with Manning’s situation, you should’ve used a better example because Manning didn’t just forget to lock a safe.
Not quite true. It depends on the circumstances. Worked with a guy who left a safe open overnight thee times in a years time. He was kicked out for it. I myself almost lost a stripe for being careless once. But yes, usually the minor stuff results in retraining or removal from duty.
Edit to add that ranks has a lot to do with it. An E-3 will get restraining, an O-3 would likely be booted for a similar offense.
Well, sure. If you keep fucking it up, your punishment is going to get worse. Still, that’s not jail.It’s not even close.
And again, Manning didn’t just commit a crime of carelessness. She didn’t leave some papers out or forget to secure a safe. She actively stole classified material, then released them to a body dedicated to making it all public.
Edit: Early on in my Army stint, I did exactly what we’re discussing. Forget to lock a safe. Result? Nothing but getting yelled at and my Sergeant giving me shit during morning PT.
Once again, Telefrog, as you seem unable to grasp the obvious.
It’s his example, so point it out to him if you disagree with it. For the love of God…
No one’s equated it to Mannings actions.
I’d ask you how on earth you concluded 2, but I already know. You’re just making shit up to fit whatever preconception it is you have.
If you want to criticize me, there’s plenty of meat on the bone to do so on a sound basis. But criticizing me over the validity of someone else’s example is arse backwards, a waste of your time and mine.
[quote]
For me that doesn’t matter. She agreed to secure classified documents. Not only did she not do so, she gave them out to a subversive group with little to no consideration to what she was giving out. That is treason. When I signed up for it, I agreed to protect the info given to me. I didn’t agree to secure only the documents I agreed with. If you do not like that info, go through lawful means and/or accept the punishment given.[/quote]
You then jumped in with:
[quote]
One day you might fuck up and leave a safe unlocked, and your attitude will change as to the necessity of such actions.
Guys like Hannsen and Ames are made an example of. To whatever extent deterrent will work for someone in Mannings situation, and it is not much I expect, it has probably.been served.
I know what he did and why, but there’s enough shit in the world it seems without adding more to it.[/quote]
So, once again you’re the one that used “leave a safe unlocked”. Not Tim. Not Lee. I’m not even sure if anyone else did until you dropped that post. Care to explain what you were going for?
“I have seen people lose their careers for much less (as in forgetting to lock a safe in a secured area). They were kicked out with an other than honorable discharge that will hang with them forever.”
You utter pinhead. What an absolute non event. Been great chatting but I’m just going to go and bang my head on a door for a while now, it’s more satisfying.
When it comes to stuff like that, much depends on the unit, and whether the NCO is trying to make a name for themselves by writing up others. Some cultures are very much into punishment, others not so much.
What a strange reply. An NCO doing there job is trying to make a name for themselves? By not punishing offenders it could create worse problems down the line. Not to mention if an outsiders catches the problem, that NCO is going to be the one getting punished for his subordinates actions.
OK, I am going to make one post on this topic. These are my opinions.
Manning: Was given access to information she should never have had access to given her mental health issues. Betrayed her military oaths, pled guilty, and was punished for it. I believe a commutation was appropriate (and a pardon would have been inappropriate). Commutation is about mercy, which is generally considered a good thing, and while you can certainly argue she hasn’t been punished enough, she has certainly been punished severely.
Assange: Wikileaks was originally a somewhat noble antiimperilist organisation, but it’s been incredibly chilling the way antiimperialists have been marching to Putin’s beat more and more. It’s a testament to the power of peer pressure. Anyway, the whole idea that the US would find it easier to extradite assange from Sweden than from the UK is so incredibly farcical that I can regard him as nothing other than a fugitive from sexual assault charges, and treat him with all the disdain that merits. IMO Sweden should withdraw the application for extradition, and the moment he leaves the embassy he should be arrested and serve the maximum sentence for bailjumping. However none of wikileaks activities seem to have broken the law where wikileaks is operating, so part of being a free society is not going after wikileaks itself.
Snowden: Did he have good motivations? It doesn’t matter. The Cambridge Five did what they did for sound ideological reasons. He committed espionage and fled to China and then Russia. We will never know if he gave secrets to the representatives of those governments. If he is ever apprehended he should be punished to the full extent of the espionage act. If he had stuck around in the US or gone somewhere other than China and then returned in a reasonable timeframe I could see him as a whistleblower, but that didn’t happen.
I should remind or clarify my entire argument was not whether the sentences or attempted arrrsts of Assange and Manning were justifiable but whether as a whistleblower in the context of his time (the treatment and outcomes of Assange, Manning, Guantanamo ect) Snowden’s decision to flee instead of “face the music” was understandable.
