I wonder if KoDP could work well as a succession game like DF. 5-10 years per leader or something like that.
Here is my question for gameplay (maybe it shouldn’t be on this thread? Not sure…)
How do I figure out how many farmers I actually need to till the land/herd the cattle, sheep, pigs. How do I know if I have enough land to do what needs to be done? Just shooting into the dark?
That is really what I am having a difficult time figuring out at the moment.
Thanks
Chris
I resisted the urge to dig up HoI because I’m too dense for that, but I really want to play this now… alas I don’t own it.
GoG prove your worth!
Go to the screen where you adjust the figures in question (number of farmers or land allocation or whatever) and check what your leader ring has to say. Usually at least one of them comments on the number of farmers you need to work all of your land or alternatively how many hides of land you potentially could work etc.
Your clan ring advisors will always tell you how many farmers you need, how many oxen you need. They give context-sensitive advice depending on which game screen you are on. One of the advisors will tell you the number of farmers needed either on the left-most screen (image of a bull) where you allocate fields or if you click on “farmers” at the population screen. No matter what you are doing in the game, your advisors will most likely tell you what you need to know.
There is one major exception here though. When allocating pastorage for your herds you need 1.5-2 times as much as what the advisor tells you, or your herds will starve.
Ok, some big-picture strategy here.
First, the feud with the Vanstali has to stop. We raid them and raid them, mostly with good success, but they’re now so poor that it doesn’t give us anything but a bit of glory and a few cows. The farmers are fed up with the endless feuding since they’re the ones that tend to die. If they had a border with us we could take their lands, but they don’t, so we can’t. We’ve already made peace with the Old Owls, making peace with the Vanstali will free us up so wa can advance in the valley to the southwest. The Grey Foxes and the Rangdani have both raided us in the past and we can have the valley to ourselves if we drive them out, Foxes first.
Now, the main goal we’re striving for here is to take all our allies and join them into a tribe. Conquest can only give a clan so much land and people before it starts to fracture, the Orlanthi clans are small groups by nature and clansmen will strike out to new lands if they become crowded.
In order to make other clans submit to our leadership we need to show that we have the favour of the gods and embark on heroquests and succeed. Now, heroquests are bloody dangerous events where a mortal takes on the role of one of the gods and walk their footsteps as they retell a great deed. The mortal has to face the same dangers that the god did and if he or she fails, well, it’s rarely pleasant. At best the clan earns scorn for failing the quest, at worst the clan member who attempted the quest is severely injured and possibly dies. If they succeed though, the gods will grant a favour and the clan will greatly increase it’s renown.
But to maximise the odds of success you need a Trickster, which is the title of a Eurmal worshipper, on the clan ring. You can do it without one, but given the price of failure it’s a great risk. And we can’t affect what nobles the clan has. Maybe we’ll get a Eurmal-worshipper one day. Or not. But until we heroquest we’ll remain just another clan, unremarkable.
I am about to embark on the quest Making the Storm Tribe.
This is a new area for me. We were able to learn secrets of that myth, so I am assuming that that will help us. I read the myth. I am now, also assuming, that the quest will mirror somewhat whatI have learned about it? I tried a Heroquest earlier, and failed at the first option. Not sure what or why, though.
This game is pretty danged awesome, though. And keep up with the updates, Kalle!!
There is a random component to heroquesting.
I maintain that the long game of Dragon Pass on hard played ironman style is one of the best gaming experiences ever. I’ve never managed to win it, but I’ve had a great time trying.
There is a way to copy over all the files from the CD. You’ll still need the CD in the drive for the copycheck, but it won’t spin constantly. You might try searching the Yahoo group. If you can’t find it, PM me and I’ll see if I can locate the instructions.
I’d like to know that too. Making a CD image and mounting it as someone recommended above worked fine thankfully.
Is there a way to see what the sacred time omens were? I try to remember to always save during sacred time so if I come back to play a day later and can’t remember what they were, I load my sacred time save up again to see them before loading my actual game.
A new year and it’s time for the clan ring to put it’s plans in motion. Repeated sacrifices to Uralada reveals all the details of the legend of Uralda’s blessing which we could now do as a heroquest, as well as learning the ritual for Milk blessing. When we have learned the ritual for calf blessing we will build a shrine in the Cow mother’s honour so our herds will grow large.
As the last seeds are sown an family arrives at the tula
Mindful that the carls are already discontent yet loathe to disrespect our ancestors by turning them away, the ring offers to accept them as cottars. Though they are disappointed they still accept and gain the protection of the clan. While we are considering how to best house our newest clanmembers a caravan arrives from the Rangdani, gifting us with goods worth 24 cows.
The horse spawn launch a vicious raid that sees many wounded but we drive them off and take 16 fine horses. A small fortune though the price was heavy.
With the crops planted the seasonal raiding can begin. A well-omened cattle raid on the Gray Foxes brings home 26 cows. The Vanstali raid us in return though their weakness is obvious as they can only muster eight thanes and barely a hundred footmen for the attack. We drove them off easily. Despite the attack the ring is still intent to seek peace with the Vanstali. As the clan celebrates our victory one of the carls is spotted with a peculiar beverage.
One one hand the ring must show that this is a serious offense, on the other hand the carls are already displeased and punishing one of their well-liked fellows will hurt the clan’s morale. Forgiveness is not an option though. The ring’s rights and privileges must be respected. In the end the ring decided to reassign Harvar’s cattle and making him and his family cottars. Harsh measures, but just, and the grumbling carls were forced to accept them.
With that matter out of the way the clan planned for the season’s next raid against the Grey Fox clan. This time we were going for more than cattle. Though evenly matched in numbers a short sharp battle saw us outmaneuvre the fox warriors and we made away with cows, horses and loot. We will plunder the foxes until they have nothing left worth stealing, then we will take their land.
The outlaw women turn up again
Though our captured manfolk were obviously lying about their escape we shall not turn away innocent babes. When put to the question about the matter both men break down and admit to adultery. This is a most serious crime and the women of the clan will be furious if we pardon adulterers. Reluctantly, the two men are outlawed. Orlanthi laws are harsh indeed. On the bright side, our menfolk are unusually fertile.
Gifting them four horses, and offering further gifts of more than 50 cows worth of goods and cattle the Vanstali agree to end the feud. They are not our friends, but neither are they our sworn enemies any more, and with some luck they will seek glory at other tulas.
A renowned warrior is another man who can help us strike down our foes. Whatever his crimes, adultery or murder, that caused his clan to turn him out he is honourable enough to seek out another clan instead of living as an outlaw.
With the last of the harvest we send out a trade caravan, hoping to barter our many horses for some fine goods from the Karandoli. The clan ring is planning to extend the fortifications with a robust stone wall and we can’t pay for it with horses. As the caravan returns with the first snows, it also brings with it a party of warriors.
Dire tidings indeed. The ring easily grants their requests and sacrifices to Humakt to aid them in their task. They praised our wisdom and honour, and as they went to work they found and slew ghouls and spectres everywhere on our tula. Humbled by their courage and our own ignorance to the danger we gifted them before they departed for doing us a great service.
With the ritual for Calf blessing learned from Uralda the clan erects a shrine in her honour so that she will look favourably upon our herds.
With the dark comes the trolls. Though we had laid a trap for them the trolls managed to break through to our herds. Though we spilled vastly more troll’s blood than they spilled ours the loss of over thirty cows makes this a bitter defeat. The clan ring plans to make up for the losses at the expense of the grey foxes however, though our first Storm season raid is defeated.
The carls, frustrated by all the fighting finally bring the matter to the ring. Though they claim to worry about the crops, our harvests are more than enough to feed the clan. Trying to persuade them otherwise meets little success though. Regardless, even if they are craven the carls are a part of the clan and their views must be respected. Worse than that though, traders have been found dead by the wayside.
The outlaws are becoming a problem and we must deal with them. Putting a price on their heads seems like the easiest way, though it doesn’t seem to yield any results.
Considering the mood of the farmers the ring decides to forego another raid before the new year. Handing out 20 cows worth of goods and finery among the farmers should show them the benefits of raiding for the clan. As we prepare for our new year’s celebration the Vanstali raid us, slipping past our scouts. They make off with twenty cows and kill one of our thanes. Peace is a bitter fruit indeed.
Yep, same here, although my resist rolls for strategy games usually work out better (I fell to Dominions 3, GalCiv2, Dwarf Fortress and ArmA, iirc). This though, probably not. Going to try to track it down now :) Keep up the great work, Kalle!
Ouch. -19 people, -71 cattle (!!!), -8 horses? That year truly sucked.
I’ve never played this game, but I’m digging this AAR. It kind of looks like a never-winnable game though, with a huge number of random events that both add color and destabilize all attempts at strategy. In fact it looks a bit like there really isn’t much strategy possible beyond reacting to the random events in the best way (which doesn’t seem very situation-dependent). Perhaps that’s actually not a bad simulation of medieval life, but it also seems like a bit of a hopeless grind. Still, I’m enjoying the ride (kind of like a Dwarf Fortress AAR which ends in mass insanity and starvation).
How many games of this have you actually won? Is winning even possible?
It’s not quite as bad as it seems. We gifted away 30 cows to the Vanstali to end the feud, and sacrificed another 25 or so to Uralda to learn her blessings this year. Now that we know the calf blessing and have a shrine to Uralda we should see our herds grow a bit quicker. As for horses, 4 were gifted away and another 8 were traded for goods. Accounting for all the raids, we lost a net 15-20 cattle. Everything else bought us something so that’s money invested.
Negative people is bad but not crippling right now. The main worry is the farmer morale, not the actual numbers. We can still field raids that are as big if not bigger than our closest enemies.
And as for what strategy there is in the game, the clan is making progress. We’ve built palisades and shrines, we’ve sacrificed to the gods and learnt their secrets. It’s a slow progress but we are getting there. For fast progress we need to heroquest, but I’ve mentioned the risks already. As for what strategy there is to it, just surviving is not a bad result. The game was practically Dwarf Fortress before Dwarf Fortress. Learning what needs to be done to keep the clan alive without overextending yourself can be a pretty steep curve.
I’ve never won a long game, where my clan rules dragon pass. I have won a couple of short games where you just need to rule a tribe for ten years.
No, it’s definitely winnable, although difficult, and there is plenty of strategy. I’d go about my game substantially differently than Kalle for example. You can only do 2 things each season, which really makes you weigh priorities.
Reacting to events is a big part of it, but the best solution is usually not clear, and is situation dependent. There are follow up consequences, plus hidden and variable aspects. Just responding the same way to events every game doesn’t work well; take for example an event about some alleged crime – sometimes the person is guilty, but sometimes it’s someone or something else, and the hints you get depend upon the skills of your council, how much magic you have, and just plain luck.
Furthermore, your desired outcome will often depend upon your current situation. Take for example Kalle punishing the Wine Smuggler: entirely correct by Orlanthi custom, and yet were his Carls more discontent, he might well have been less harsh.
[Edit] I’ve won the long game a couple of times, although I’ve yet to beat it on Hard, where the odds are heavily stacked against you. I keep thinking I’m breaking into a solid position, and them BAM!, I get taken down by calamity.
I should probably change the clan to a war clan instead of remaining a balanced clan cause I’ve been doing a lot more fighting than I originally intended but I don’t remember the consequences of that decision.
I think the main effect is the amount of raiding the clan expects, and the skills that Clan members begin with (and maybe, develop?). I vaguely recall that it also increased your success in battle, and hampered you in trade, but I’m not sure about that. I also wouldn’t be surprised if it affected your diplomatic relations.
I’ve always stuck with a balanced clan, but I’ve wondered whether on hard it might make more sense to be more aggressive, at least for a while.
Like Jasper says, the underlaying variables and how they interact with the members of the ring make this quite the roleplaying experience. Not every member of the ring is predictable based on, say, who they worship - they also have ties to the various social strata and likely other variables built into who they are. And who they are is expressed in the advice they give to each situation.
You kinda have to know the cultural legacy, expected behavior, of your clan (as generated in the prelude) and then come to know who on your ring offers the most reliable advice on which issues. Generally, a safe bet is to go with a plurality of opinions on a particular question but if you’ve got someone that’s had better hunches before then you might seriously consider listening to him.
The single best way to play is to put yourself in the mindset of the leader you’re supposed to be and work from there rather than even trying to memorize optimal strategies. The sheer variability of events will mess with “the usual” strategy gamer and drive him nuts. The roleplayer/simulationist, however, will be in hog heaven. As Kalle says, surviving each year in, and of, itself is its own kind of victory in King of Dragon Pass.
When I first got this game years ago I never played enough to quite get the hang of it, and I’d seemingly always lead my clan to starvation.
This time however I’ve managed to get through the first part of a game with some success. In the early years I did a lot of sacrificing to learn mysteries and built as many shrines as my worshipers would support. Having a full set of permanent blessings that help your food production like sun, rain, bless crops, etc. is a great help.
Remembering to take note of the sacred time omens and change your crops accordingly is very important as well. If there a bad harvest coming you better switch to mostly rye production.
Be careful about raiding during sea and earth season. I ruined a game because I forgot what season it was when being given a story choice to raid. While it was a wonderfully successful raid, I paid the price for sending almost my whole can off to war during the planting. Pressing the help button (?) in a “story” screen will tell you what season it is. So before making a choice to mount a raid always double check what season it is.
The real breakthrough in my current game came as a result of a raid on my tula. I was warned by a nearby clan (thanks guys) so I was able to bring my full force to bear. Since they were outnumbered, and I had plenty of magic to add to my chances, plus I had the Burning Standard artifact I decided instead of just trying to drive them off, to try and capture as many as I could. My warriors trounced theirs and many captives were taken. I ransomed the captives and gained more than 200 goods (how they even had 200+ goods is amazing). I managed to capture and ransom even more from the same tribe a few years later, and now combined with my large number of crafters I have a goods stockpile of 500+. Now if I’m low on anything, I just trade some goods for it.
I did “The Making of the Storm Tribe” hero quest successfully and am now gathering clans for a tribe. Here I have some questions through. How many clans should I gather? Can I have other clans join my tribe later, or once I create a tribe am I stuck with just the clans initially gathered?
Such a great game. Time to dig out the cd. I always got baffled by the spirit quest thingies, everything else in the game was wonderful.