Civil Unrest next level or the beginning of the failure of our democracy

Politics and religion
303

I believe that the GOP itself is pretty far off the rails, and I’m talking about a more sensible conservative perspective.

That being said, in terms of the “why aren’t they willing to pay more taxes to help people, if they are Christian?” question, that’s not really that legitimate an argument. Because you can very easily say, “I have no problem giving money to poor people and charities. I just don’t want to do it through the government.” And indeed, there are many people who don’t like the government and feel that it’s incompetent in its handling of their money, but who make large donations to charities and their local communities.

304

Well, those guys were actually stealing money from the government, in that they were spending money which was allocated as part of the government budget, on frivolous crap. Or folks like Trump, who is effectively stealing our money and shoveling it to his own properties.

That’s different, at least to me, than simply cutting taxes. On some level, both result in less available revenue, but there is a non-trivial difference there.

305

Not the argument I’m making. The argument I’m making is using narratives that are inaccurate and hot factualy correct as true facts. I can point to arguments made in this very forum to make my point. This is the context I’m talking about

Using narratives as facts and treating them as reality, is bad. Worse for the party in power since they are making policy based on inaccurate narratives, and all the voters enabling them and actually holding them to account to these inaccurate narratives.

306

Yes, you’re right. I’ve amended my question:

307

I just think a large portion of conservatives and libertarians (and on some ideological level, liberals and progressives) have big disconnects between government policy and functioning society. Essentially society is this big machine and it just works and they no longer understand the machine.

We’re all living in shitty Zion, essentially, and conservatives are poking at the gears and not understanding what they do or why they want them.

We’re at the point (and i’m basically an advocate of this) where we need to wall off some conservative states and let them live the dream of no taxes, no services. Until they rediscover why governments exist.

308

I think they call it “Kansas”.

309

Somalia.

310
  1. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz- had to resign to scandals, again in trouble for an aide that is under criminal investigation for equipment and data theft, and part of a larger probe into 5 staffers committing crimes. She was also instrumental in delaying regulations to stop predatory lending practices in 2015.
  2. Rep. Robert Brady is under investigation for criminal conspiracy to hide a $90,000 payment made to persuade a 2012 primary opponent to drop out of the race.
  3. Sen. Robert “Bob” Menéndez in 2017 Senate Select Committee on Ethics opened a case against him for bribery and corruption.
  4. Democratic Congresswoman Corinne Brown was convicted on several charges related to a fraudulent charity
  5. Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver got his corruption conviction overturned this month, but U.S. Attorney’s Office of New York is retrying the case
  6. California Democratic Party paid a fine over laundered big oil money to Gov. Jerry Brown’s 2014 campaign.

Some more out there of course, and again completely ignoring governors and mayors (Chicago could be a list by itself) Not on the level of Trump right now, but then again not at the same level power wise either…

311

Hey, that’s bipartisan in Illinois. Ryan and Blago took that to the governors office.

312

If what you mean to say is that some politicians are crooks, then you’re really not making an interesting statement, because some people in every profession are crooks. It says nothing about the institutional nature of the two parties.

I think you’re making a larger claim, about the nature of the parties, saying that both parties offer campaign promises which are in fact just cover for giving them opportunities to loot the state.

That’s how I read this:

This is certainly what the Republican Party does (e.g. your wages are low because of illegal immigrants stealing your jobs), but not at all what the Democratic Party does.

So maybe I misread you, but if I didn’t, what are the abstract inaccurate partisan narratives that the Democratic Party engages in, in order to offer cover for individual Democrats to weaken national interests and enrich their self interest?

313

It’s come up again in other related threads, but “evil” seems to keep getting brought up.

I have never, in all my life, met a person who is 100% evil. Most of us are the heroes of our own stories, after all.

In an effort to streamline our thoughts and reduce paralysis by analysis, we all rationalize our actions and limit consideration of external consequences on a routine basis. This is a normal, not-evil dynamic. However, this cognitive device within each of us makes us susceptible to manipulation toward what I might consider evil ends, and some of us more so than others.

This doesn’t excuse a person from their responsibility, but it paints someone’s personality in far more shades of gray than many seem comfortable with. For instance, the claim of “I was just following orders” at a Nuremberg trial doesn’t hold water to me, but I can typically understand how the person got from point A to point B and I don’t see them as 100% evil, either. Twisted and culpable for their crimes? Hell, yes. Are they “good people” on the other side? No, certainly not; that threshold was passed in my mind. But also not 100% evil.

So if one believes the GOP has evil intent and therefore all who support it are evil, I wonder what benefit such a viewpoint holds. Is this a similar dynamic, allowing us to dismiss the impact of our wishes on those who oppose them, perhaps? That’s not an entirely bad thing if so, but perhaps might be useful to recognize.

I mean, I’ve done evil things before. I shoplifted when I was little. I made fun of the occasional kid. I struck people in anger. In my younger years, I was also quite a scofflaw when it came to speed limits (which increases the odds for an accident and therefore endangers others’ lives without their consent). I feel remorse for each action, as I’ve gained the ability to understand the depth of how wrong each thing was. I was able to get from point B back to point A, so to speak. I don’t consider myself evil, nor do I consider myself 100% good. Instead, I’m a complex and growing human being and I hope to be that way until the day I die. More than anything, I’m not beyond redemption.

So if someone votes for Trump or the GOP, I don’t necessarily chalk them up as lost causes and figurative casualties of the righteous wave of Liberal fury. Instead, I take a little time and view them as imperfect human beings who can someday do better. Case by case, some of them will be too far gone; some will have passed that threshold. But that’s a pretty small number in my mind. I think I keep it that way because I inherently believe in redemption, and in the potential each life holds for doing good. Dismissing so many can inhibit their efforts to be better and grow, and that seems like such a terrible waste.

314

Lol fair enough!

315

Still an understandable reaction, still not true.

316

You make a good point. I wouldn’t call people in the GOP evil unless they are in the top N to N-3 tiers of the org. Everyone below that level is more of a reprogrammable meat bag, rather than being consciously evil.

317

That’s my point, the partisan narrative is used regularly to highlight the injustice to the ‘other’ side and gloss over the criminals in this side. This pattern has allowed a culture of criminal behavior to be veiled behind partisan look how crooked the other side is, and considering the same criminality on their side normal. These narratives is a defection to the reality that becoming more and more thriving.

318

I see you making a claim of the form both doctors and bank robbers are bad because both groups contain crooks. The latter claim is true, that they both contain crooks; but the former isn’t. One group contains crooks by design, while the other does by bad luck and human nature.

I’m saying the Republican Party is all a con, while the Democratic Party is not all a con, so they are not the same.

319

That the GOP is the problem, that they are evil. We by our behaviors are the problem, rather than drill down to facts allow and accept narratives as fact.

I agree that the democratic party is less…hostile if you will. They accept people as they are generally speaking, accept diversity in most of its forms. That trait is admirable, but also not very practical by nature, not usually budget conscious as a public narrative. So when the other side says hey this budget aspect is important, and you agree with that, you are naturally drawn to that side, You find faults with both sides, but stick with the side that has the most palatable narrative. Also once you are invested, its hard to flip from that investment (from either side), especially when the other side calls you evil :or not worth the time :)

320

this!

321

That’s good, but I’m looking for an answer to this question:

Do you have examples? I don’t think ‘The GOP is evil’ is actually a Democratic Party narrative, but I could be wrong on that.

322

Technically, this place is called “Kansas”.