3341

I just did a single city culture victory in around 2-2.5 hours. I had five trees maxed at turn 410 and as such the Utopia Project at 465.

It was on archipelago and no one declared war on anyone (not even the 12 city states) until turn 450. I don’t think the AI is that good with water, perhaps?

3342

Despite the changes to cities, I am convinced they are now far weaker (militarily, meaning easier to capture) than in Civ IV. My rule of thumb is a (Civ V) city is worth 1.7 modern units. Yes, a city can now defend itself against isolated units. However, 2>1.7. Thus, 2 units working in tandem and taking advantage of faster heal rates can take down an isolated city. Three units? Its lights out. I just cringe every time I set an city to do its ranged attack and watch a piffly 1-3 damage show up. I just ganked Alexander by throwing three horsemen at his capital early on before he founded additional cities. He had a hoplite that could have beat back my horsemen, but it was on the other side of his capital and only city. The tactics did not allow him to quickly move it towards the side. The capital fell in two turns.

Long story short, a defender needs an army to stop invaders from taking cities of roughly equal value as the attackers (barring exploiting an inefficient tactical AI). In Civ IV, cities were force multipliers for those defending it. So, two infantry fortifying a city could reasonably hold off much larger forces of 5 or 6 or more before attrition took its toll.

3343

I agree. The only reason I was able to save many cities is because the AI did not target the 2-3 ships I had sailing just on the shore of the city sniping all the invaders…

3344

I think this changes with map size. I just checked a size large map, and the cultural cost of the next social policy goes up 20% for each additional city. It is 30% on a standard size map.

Hence, if all cities are equal in producing culture, the sweet spots would be 4 cities and 5 or 6 cities for standard and large maps respectively. Going from 3 cities to 4 increases your potential to generate culture 33%, while only increasing the cost 30% or 20%, see? However, not all cities are equally good at producing culture. Without a wonder, they can not take advantage of the Freedom policy that doubles cultural output for cities with Wonders. This is a good reason to save Great Engineers for rushing Wonders in cities with otherwise low production.

That being said, I think going for a culture victory is probably the hardest to pull off even with careful planning. The player has to drastically limit their expansion, and pick up key Wonders: Stonehenge, Oracle, Sistine Chapel, the Sydney Opera House, and most importantly Christ the Redeemer are the obvious ones. Other victory conditions can work in tandem with expansion. Diplomacy and space ships are really about gold and research, which typically get bigger with larger empires.

3345

I strongly prefer the new city mechanic. IMO the point isn’t that a city can take on a large number of units by itself, it’s that you don’t have to garrison cities. What you need is a quick-reaction force setup within a reasonable distance to your cities so that it can support the cities when the enemy shows up. Unless it’s a small frontier city against strong modern troops, a city should be able to last a turn or two against all but the largest attack force. That gives you time to bring your army onto the field.

So I guess I agree with you, you do need an army to stop invaders. What you don’t need is defenders in every city.

3346

I agree Mark. Every time I’ve gone a few small cities, I’ve ended up getting crushed. I’m not sure three cities is enough to produce both wonders and cultural buildings and provide military units necessary for defense.

I don’t see how people manage to win with just one city. Do you just drop down the difficulty level a lot, or can you actually win with one city at a comparable difficulty level to what you normally play?

3347

Well, I JUST finished a one city challenge on King. It was ridiculously easy because the AI never declared war on me, even when I was in the middle of building the utopia project. Because of how culture works a cultural victory is really quite easy with one city. My only threat was barbarians, which on king are kinda irritating. Oh, and I was egypt as only a few of the civs really make sense for a one city game.

I have to admit I’ve been pretty unimpressed with the AI in civ 5. I may be done with it until a patch or expansion comes out because that was just trivially easy and on a “higher than standard” difficulty even.

3348

I’m currently aiming for a cultural victory with one city playing as Egypt on Emperor difficulty, on a small or tiny map (I can’t remember which). I’m up to the Industrial era, and it’s going well so far. Part of why it seems a good idea to remain as a single city is that it makes the bonuses for getting an allied cultural city state more valuable. I’ve managed to get every city state on the map allied with me, which altogether is providing roughly the same culture as my city, which has just gone over +100 per turn.

The big issue of the moment in my game is what to do about Alexander, who is rapidly conquering all of the other civs on the other continent to mine. I’ve just declared war so I can start trying to weaken him with my navy now, before he gets too powerful, but I hope this doesn’t backfire and get me invaded. I’ve already pissed off most of the other civs by protecting city states from them.

3349

How big was your military? Normally the AI starts sending me messages about how awful my military is for about 50+ turns, and then decides to invade if I don’t do anything about it.

The only game I’ve won with Culture was a duel game against Gandhi. He was on one continent, I was on the other. I decided I felt bad beating up on Gandhi so I didn’t attack him. He didn’t attack me either. So we basically had an entirely peaceful game.

3350

Let us know how it goes. So far, I haven’t been particularly impressed by the AI’s use of navy. I’m starting to go Pangea a lot, just so the AI isn’t that handicapped, although I still need to knock off that Archipelago Steam Achievement.

I also figure I need to beat the game on Deity soon, this is probably my best ever chance of beating a Civ game at the top level – normally I’m an Emperor level player. I figure I need to do it before the AI gets fixed. But so far, the AI has stymied my best efforts.

I got crushed on Deity again last night. I thought I had a good chance, as I found a map with an ideal choke point, a river valley, surrounded by mountains, with two military city-states to butress one flank. I allied the two city-states, and built a Maginot-line defense along the river. Built a city on a hill behind the river, and used two generals two build fotresses to protect it. But alas, I was out-teched and my defensive line of Roman Longswordman supported by Ballistas and Crossbowmen was overwhelmed by a flood of Janissaries supported by Cannon, Sipahi (Ottoman Lancers), and a frigate.

3351

I just won a culture victory at ~2035 on King difficulty, huge map, small continents w/low sealevel. I only settled two cities, but had many puppets. I should have settled my second city a lot earlier.

City states are important for a cuture win, IMO. All three types! You get reasearch and resources from all of them. The extra food from Maritime states is vital for population growth. Free units from militeristic states are great for when you’re too busy building wonders to build units. Also, militeristic states were the only ones to give me great people with the Patronage policy that grants that ability to them. And obiviously the Cultured states pump up culture. This makes the patronage tree very attractive.

Thebes was pumping out 324 culture/turn near end game. The whole empire was about 535. I had the city working 6 great artist landmarks. I had 22 wonders in Thebes (including things like the palace, ironworks, etc.) with the following wonders pertaining to a cultural win:

Cristo Redentor - +1 culture, culture costs of new policies reduced 33%
Hermitage - double culture output of Thebes
Sistine Chappel - +1 culture +33% culture in all cities
The Oricle - +1 culture, free policy
Stonehenge - massive +8 culture
Didn’t get to build the Opera house (+1 culture, 1 free policy) as someone else beat me to it. I really didn’t end up needing it though.

And the following builidings for more culture

Broadcast tower - doulbes culture in city
Burial tomb - +2 culture
Monistary - +3 culture w/+2 culture per winery/incence nearby, I had 3 wine tiles in Thebes
Monument +2 culture
Museum +5 culture +2 culture from specialists
Opera House +5 culture

75 base culture +333% with bonuses.

This was my first stab at a culture win, and there are lots of things I could do better next time, like starting my second city a lot sooner. My neighbours had a nasty habit of taking out my City-state allies, so they had to be dealt with. I would have had a much easier time of that if I had started war with them sooner. Earlier puppets would have made for more culture earlier too.

3352

I started playing two games with the[I] new economy/I mod and the changes drastically change the game. Because techs take longer (less stuff to build) and building stuff is faster AIs amass big armies very quickly. Combined with the bonuses the AIs get at king you really have to decide on stuff.

The first game saw my two city empire quickly overrun by a dozen archers and warriors.
In my second game I was only able to repel an American-Japaenese joint attack thanks to terrain. It was also the first time a fight wasn’t a steamroll, as I lost quite a few units instead of the “level up your small elite force” I was used to.

3353

You hated a ‘C’, assigned to a game with a terrible AI, when compared to a game that gets a ‘D-’ that has an even worse AI? What?

3354

Was garrisoning cities really that hard? Just build a few archers, send them to the city in question, fortify and forget.

But thats not my point. You say cities now hold off forces on their own until relief arrives. Maybe, but if they enemy acts aggressively the city will substantially lose health, and it only gets 1 health back per turn. The enemy can selectively target the city, ignoring your troops, and take it.

Worse, what if your relief army is outnumbered and outgunned? The city only adds 1.7 (per my thumb rule) units. So, an army of 10 (and the AI on the harder difficulty levels can reach that amount easy) will take the city protected by only 5 soldiers (barring AI stupidity). Thus, cities are substantially easier to capture and smaller civilizations really cannot do much to stop larger civs from beating up on the militarily except for the many disincentives Civ V provides for expansion (which don’t seem to bother the AI that much).

3355

IMO yes, it was a pain in the ass.

Couple points.

You need to have strong enough intelligence so that no large city is ever overwhelmed by a large enemy force. The garrison is most useful to prevent enemy raiders like cavalry units from moving in and taking out lone cities. Cities on the border should be fortified and you should have at least some friendly units along the border.

Your relief force should be strong enough to prevent the enemy from continuing to pound on the city. If it isn’t, see the answer to your next question.

Then you better be damn good at combat or you’ve lost the game. Reduce the difficulty level and repeat.

Sorry, I don’t buy your 1.7 rule. Maybe in a strict fight with 2 units vs. a city. But it doesn’t take into account the inherent advantage of the city. It provides a safe place to park artillery or units which are low on health. It provides a strong bulwark that the enemy either has to attack, in which case they aren’t attacking your units, or which the enemy ignores, in which case it can pound on the enemies as your own units maneuver back and forth around the city, pulling back to heal. You can think of it as a bit of a force multiplier, not a strict addition of 1.7 units.

Plus, as previously discussed the AI is not particularly bright.

5 units and a city might not hold up against 10 units and a city, but according to your rule, 98 units and a city should lose to 100 units, and that’s bosh. I’d have to try it out, but for sure I think 7 units or maybe even 6 units can hold against 10 with a city support. And I wouldn’t be all that surprised if 5 could hold out, if well handled.

A lot of it depends on how big the city is, and how heavily fortified it is. A small walled city is not that great. A large walled city or better a large castled city is going to be tough for the enemy to take out. Of course once the enemy gets artillery (3-range) things are going to get dicier although the city makes a very nice place to park your own artillery where they can pulverize the enemy, without taking damage back.

I’m playing games on Emperor, Immortal, and Deity, so yes, I am well aware of how many units the AI can bring into a fight.

3356

Because the culture cost is radically lower with fewer cities. I’m only mentioning it because I’ve done it, with the caveat that it was on warlord, and I had little trouble acquiring all of the 5. I built my tech tree around science and culture, with a willingness to pick up “trash” wonders (the ones with onetime effects or a minor culture boost). It’s also easier to maintain happiness (especially with all of those social policies chiming in). After the end of this game, you can see how even with the culture yields toned down as I don’t really need them anymore, it’s still at 246/turn out of 3075, and keep in mind that golden ages were being triggered left and right during this game. Also, that’s a total of 27 going on 28 (apollo program) wonders built, and a total of three major defensive wars, two at the behest of nearby city states.

I do agree that three cities is probably where it’s at for higher difficulties, and ideally the emphasis would be on luxuries (esp marble, of course) in order to provide the cash and the happiness. But war and expansion seem like a poor option if you want to win by culture.

3357

I lost my 1 city cultural victory, Montezuma had a massive army and I couldn’t get my policy trees complete in time. I think the biggest issue was not having enough gold to ally with the cultural city states.

3358

Geez, how about settlers? Were they to much trouble for you? I guess this is our play experiences not matching up, but I never found garrisoning to be particularly onerous compared to the rest of gameplay. Regardless, I am not against the fact that cities now defend themselves. I am saying they are weaker overall despite or because of the changes. I dislike this since it makes it harder for smaller nations to hold off the greater militaries of bigger nations.

Sorry, I don’t buy your 1.7 rule. Maybe in a strict fight with 2 units vs. a city. But it doesn’t take into account the inherent advantage of the city. It provides a safe place to park artillery or units which are low on health. It provides a strong bulwark that the enemy either has to attack, in which case they aren’t attacking your units, or which the enemy ignores, in which case it can pound on the enemies as your own units maneuver back and forth around the city, pulling back to heal. You can think of it as a bit of a force multiplier, not a strict addition of 1.7 units.

5 units and a city might not hold up against 10 units and a city, but according to your rule, 98 units and a city should lose to 100 units, and that’s bosh. I’d have to try it out, but for sure I think 7 units or maybe even 6 units can hold against 10 with a city support. And I wouldn’t be all that surprised if 5 could hold out, if well handled.

Ugh, math was never your strong point, was it? You assume I am thinking additively instead of in ratios. Of course 100 vs 98 is very different then 2 units vs. 1 city. There is always a degree of randomness, modifiers, etc. The ratio of defenders versus attackers is what interests me. My rule says 8 defenders and a city are slightly inferior to 10 attackers, but the attackers are only 4% better. That is all but evenly matched piratically speaking. However, three defender against 10 attackers are outmatched 2:1. They will get overrun, especially if the attack is competent and focuses on vulnerable units (those on plain terrain) and wounded units which quickly creates an even more lopsided ratios.

Still, “1.7” is nothing in stone, but just a general expression of how useful I found cities in aiding their own defense.

Obviously, a lot can change based on tech levels, terrain, whether or not the city has combat improvements (though I found them relatively worthless), etc. However, I just do not get a force multiplier feeling form cities, at all. “Safe harbor” is misleading, since if the city falls the unit dies regardless of its health. It can only safely shelter one unit at a time, and if it houses an archer or artillery type, they cannot attack and get out to let some wounded mechanized infantry in. “Strong Balwark” is also a bit of an overstatement in my experience. They tend to have combat values similar to modern units of the moment, but other limitations such as the inability to level and get abilities and a slow heal rate which offsets its extra HP compared to units.

3359

Cities are a lot stronger when they are placed such that their ranged attacks overlap attackers via choke points and there is no good place to park ranged units to attack with such as hills. Also I had my shiny new lancer taken out for 10 damage by a weakened enemy city in one turn. It was on open terrain but it still makes no sense. That city was also behind in tech, seemed like a bug or something.

3360

My military was pretty dang small, just a few ships and a crazy-upgraded rifleman at year 1200 because of random ruin upgrades. Reading a few pages back I think I realize what it was: I picked an Archipelago map, and it appears that the AI just REALLY doesn’t care about anyone who isn’t on the same continent as them. They never bothered to even insult me or demand anything. They fought amongst themselves a bunch and by the end it was only me and 2 other civs.

So yeah, if you want an easy one-city victory just do it on archipelago and the AI will completely ignore you as you win.