Janster
4201
Done quite a few MP games, no game crashing issues, everything works as intended, but difficulty level is not holding up, we’ve been using immortal so far, and as we’ve gotten better, its not cutting it anymore, particularly on larger maps.
Deity next I guess.
Wait - has the new patch been released?!?
edit - nvm, I don’t believe so. I was just getting a little excited.
Janster
4203
It wont be out this week according to the forum, maybe next.
Miramon
4204
Incidentally, if you have no resources whatsoever, it’s viable to push hard for machinery. Because the AI sucks so much, crossbowmen in your hands are worth a lot more than pretty much any pre-industrial unit whatsoever in the hands of the AI, and they work as both ranged units and low-defense city besiegers. So you can still kick ass with just spearmen and crossbowmen, even with no horses and no iron, so long as the spearmen just sit there healing until the final sliver of city redness allows them to actually conquer something.
However, to get to machinery quickly you have to pass up a lot of other tech, so it’s nice to have horsemen, swordsmen and catapults first, even if you eschew the silly horse rush.
I’ve been sort of wondering about that since I got the first reply to my question about Tom’s stance. I’ve been keeping out of the discussion since then, though (well, until now, I guess).
Woot those are very good changes. I had pretty much stop playing Civ V once FO:NV was released but once I complete this playthrough. I think I’ll go back and start playing Civ V some more.
I am hope the next patch focus on some of the late game issues with the tech tree. In particular I think that they should reintroduce some of the dependencies that had in Civ IV. Some while I am fine that you can build Mech Infantry without oil, I have a real problem that you can build Mech Infantry or Airplanes without researching combustion, so I found there were a lot of techs in the modern era that really didn’t need to be researched.
Yep. Tanks in general are something of a waste of time. One game I even deliberately beelined for combustion + Biology for the oil, and discovered that if you do that, it’s actually faster to research Mech Infantry, which are mostly superior to tanks and don’t require a special resource.
I’ve been as clear as I can about a complicated issue. But Ryan and Blackadar aren’t discussing the issue in good faith. Let’s look at how Ryan phrases it:
No one is talking about “making illegal copies”. And even if they were, it’s not something I do. I would think he’d know better than to accuse me of theft. Ryan has actually been to Shoot Club at my house. If he’d like to come back, perhaps with representative of the ESA in tow, I can demonstrate that every single game we play is according to how the publisher wants it to be played. There are no illegal copies here. In fact, I don’t even think I’m using any cracked .exes right now. I’ve used them in the past to make it easier to start games that required a CD in the drive to start, but that’s not a factor in the games we play these days, so you can’t really ding me for that one. Furthermore, I have never provided instructions for how to make “illegal copies”. Nor have I ever tried to get such a discussion going.
I’m not sure how to respond to being called a “crazy hypocrite”, a thief, and a tutor to other thieves. I guess my response is “nuh-uh”. I suppose I could return the insults in kind by pointing out that it’s a pretty lousy lawyer who can’t distinguish between breaking the law and violating a EULA. But that’s another one of those complicated issues. I suspect it would elude someone who doesn’t acknowledge the difference between downloading a torrent and getting a LAN game of Civ4 going with the tacit support of Firaxis, 2K Games, or Soren Johnson hisself. According to Ryan and Blackadar, it’s all filthy piracy. Breaking the law is breaking the law, whether you’re ripping the tag off a mattress or robbing a bank.
It is an interesting issue, however, and I’m happy to have the discussion with anyone who wants to actually, you know, have the discussion. I’ve made my stance as clear as I can. Firstly, I’d rather that people didn’t advocate piracy on this forum. Oh, and on an unrelated note, I’m a frequent LAN gamer who hates how LAN support has been marginalized. As such, I’m interested in ways the publishers and developers let us play games on a LAN, and the ways they don’t. If that breaks the occasional EULA, well then, let’s have the EULA discussion, because that’s also important. But shrieking about teh piracy and “crazy hypocrisy” isn’t really something I’m interested in.
Besides, how 'bout that Civ5 patch in the pipeline?
-Tom
Yeah, it seems that they are caught in a dead space between mech inf for cities and melee and the mobile rocket launchers. Then again, at least the AI seems to recognize that since they never build them.
I think we can all agree it would be fantastic if we could allow others to play a free copy of a game with us without anyone having to pony up the cash, aruging against that would be silly. However, it’s also never going to happen, at least not like it did back when I played Doom 2 off a floppy with 3 other guys at college.
The most important part of your post, which I’ve quoted above, is the actual reason I keep reading this thread - I keep hoping for info on the damn patch! I have refrained from playing until it drops, and I’m jonesing.
That thing you did at college was piracy. What LAN players want can take many forms that don’t require piracy or anything resembling it, such as multiplayer only installs that can be played locally so long as they are locked to a serial. Instead, the trend in multiplayer these days is to stick to full installs with no such options, on the assumption that multiplayer will primarily happen over the internet or whatever. That’s fine, but it doesn’t preclude a specific niche from complaining when they are hung out to dry.
It’s a non-issue to me because I have no interest in Civ multiplayer, but I don’t see how this is so hard to understand without flapping off about free copies.
Rywill
4212
For whatever it’s worth, I’m trying to discuss this in good faith. If you, as you put it, “fudge” your computers into offline mode, it’s pretty clear why you’re doing that. You’re doing it so the Steam servers won’t know that you are using a single licensed install of the game twice (or more than twice). I understand that you distinguish that from what you call “traditional piracy,” but at least to me your non-traditional piracy still looks like a form of piracy. It looks like having two copies of the game running when you only paid for one, when it’s pretty clear that the person who distributed the game to you intended that you pay for each copy you are using. I understand that you think you should be entitled to have multiple copies running, especially since that’s how games used to be, but those sorts of justifications are exactly the sorts of things “traditional pirates” use as well. So when I was talking about getting a discussion going, I’m talking about the stuff upthread where you’re advocating fudging computers into offline mode to fool Steam, and encouraging people to figure out which games have this loophole and which have been proofed against it.
I get your point that there are worse things people do – aren’t there always? – but that’s just a diversion from the issue of whether what you are doing is OK or not, and how you square it with your strong stance against “traditional piracy.” Which you’ve tried to explain now and doesn’t pass the smell test for me, so we can just agree to disagree I suppose.
And again, all of this is irrelevant to a discussion about whether it’s good or bad the way LAN gaming is nowadays, or ways we think companies could do better. Complaining about the status quo is not the same as circumventing the status quo.
Edit: Also, just so I’m clear, it’s not like I’m saying fudging your computers into offline mode is awful. I couldn’t care less if people do that, and don’t much care about even “traditional piracy” of software. I was just calling out the bizarreness of saying the one is forbidden to even discuss but the other is awesome.
KevinC
4213
Because of the way Steam mechanics work. As has been stated multiple times in this thread, there are several games that have a license which allows multiple plays on a LAN with a single serial, but due to the way Steam functions, this isn’t always a possibility if the game is purchased through that service.
Rywill
4214
OK, but isn’t it true that you buy the game from Steam, and one of their conditions on you buying it from them is that you only get one license? It’s the same as the example with Soren, right? Soren may be totally fine with you playing multiple instances of Civ 4 on one disc, but you didn’t buy the game from him. You bought it from his distributor, and they are the ones who are deciding what license they are selling you. Similarly, if I’m a developer and distribute my game through Steam, Steam has a right to sell single licenses, right? Even if I sell multi-use licenses to people through other channels?
The alternative explanation that you’re positing (as I understand it) is that everyone, including the people at Steam who sold you the game, is fine with you making multiple uses of the license, and the only reason you can’t is because of Steam’s login mechanics, which everyone understands makes it impossible for you to use the licenses you purchased but nobody will make right. I find it difficult to believe that, but I guess it would take Chet or someone to settle it. If that’s the actual state of affairs – in other words, that everyone you bought this thing from (not just some of the people in the chain) is fine with you doing things that way – then you’re right that it’s not piracy and I apologize for saying that it is.
hong
4215
Yeah, that’s crazy. I mean, the game was called Panzer General, not Panzergrenadier General!
However, tanks should totally be pwned by ninjae.
jpinard
4216
I can’t believe they didn’t get the patch out for the holiday. Everyone expected it would hit Wednesday afternoon.
I agree, as the last patch was released a month ago. :-(
Do they? Steam is a retailer–terms of service and licensing agreements are typically the domain of the publisher. Does Gamestop or Best Buy get to dictate the terms of service when you buy an game from them? As far as I know, they don’t.
I guess you could make the argument that Steam is different than Gamestop or Best Buy–not just a retailer, more of a service–and that perhaps they play by different rules. I don’t know, that may be true. It’s kind of a gray area. I’ll also point out that in the specific example that Tom cited (Titan Quest), he pointed out that he knows for a fact that the publisher, THQ, allowed multiple installations for LAN play. This is not analogous to having a random person from the dev team (like Soren, with Civ IV) say that they want you to be able to play the game via LAN, because typically when the publisher says that you can legally do it, you can. Again, it’s possible that Steam actually does have the authority to change that in spite of the game publisher’s original intent. But I don’t know for sure, and the Steam subscriber agreement doesn’t say anything about it one way or the other, and for that reason, I’m not sure that the issue is as cut and dry as other examples of “traditional” piracy.
metta
4219
No PBEM in CIV V? What the fuckety-fuck, Firaxis?
/topic course correction
I keep hearing it’s in the pipe along with hotseat, just not sure when it will be released.
As an aside, I’m personally impressed by our forum members from Firaxis and Valve staying the heck out of these side conversations (at least afaik).
