4541

Civ 4 was a very hard act to follow.

In retrospect I think that if Firaxis was thinking of changing the game fundamentals, they would have been better off doing doing so in a Civ: Space or Civ: Fantasy or Civ: Anything But A Direct Successor to Civ 4.

I know I would have been more patient with some of the tactical AI issues if it had been attached to a different-flavored game that didn’t invite such direct comparison with Civ 4, and I suspect many other grumpy old Civ fans would have felt the same.

4542

Indeed, I quite agree. But we are so familiar with the tech tree and the wonders and everything that naturally we focus on the most significant difference in this new game and see it was really poorly implemented. If this had been Dinosaur Civ: Beat The Meteor, or Divinity Civ: Conquer Paradise with all new techs, wonders, units, sides, and so on, no one would complain as much about the bad AI.

This is why SMAC was so good. You could say it was basically a Civ II retread with the same dumb AI as ever, but all that fluff about wonder videos and leader personalities and sci-fi framing made it fun. Similarly FFH was good because it was all unexpected and innovative, no matter how amateurishly implemented at times, and you couldn’t create a complete model of the game in your head after just a few hours of play.

4543

Seconded! Good luck Jon wherever you go.

4544

Thirded! Jon’s a class-act and I hope this was a planned move. Maybe we’ll be reading he’s moving to Zynga or EA like two other previous Firaxis lead’s? :)

4545

Man, this news got me reading this thread, which in turn gave me the itch to play and see the new patch.

Unfortunately, the mac version doesn’t have the patch (yet? who am I kidding…).

I guess I’ll have to wait to bootcamp the shit out of the game once my term papers are finished (probably a good thing).

4546

I remember Soren saying somewhere that he was really happy with Civ 4, and was able to implement all his key ideas, so he didn’t really feel there was anything to add to it. Theres no need to make a directors cut if the director gets what he wants the first time.

Good luck to John. I hope he goes on to create a new turn based strategy game, and someone else comes along with good ideas for Civ 5. Best of both worlds.

4547

It does seem a ‘bit soon’ though, for Shafer to leave. From what i’ve read around CivV it seems like it could do with a few-patch/expansion treatments like CivIV needed? The lead-developer going after one patch seems wrong?

4548

Yeah, those civfanatics guys are making Jon out to be the fall guy. I think Civ V is really more a case of flawed/underfunded execution then bad design.

4549

Yeah. Though, I like the game and still think it would have been the best in the series if everything worked as it was intended…

I speculated about how I thought Civ 5 would be handled post-release back on page 129 and unfortunately some of it seems to be coming true.

Oh well, I still think “Civilization Network” on Facebook targeted towards new and casual gamers is the only way to go for the franchise.

Making Civ games for “veterans” is a lose/lose situation and I think Firaxis now recognizes this.

4550

I think that improving the MP area would satisfy a lot of these complaints, as they seem to be asking for something that is currently almost impossible…AI that acts like a human, which it just cannot do with current AI code (not without an unrealistic amount of Dev time assigned to it)

Game concept complaints such as the removal of religion is not entirely valid, as it is still there, but just not as obvious or impacting as before.

However, non-attacking-stacking is something i believe could be better implemented.

4551

No, I don’t think so. Civ is primarily single-player, I should say most people have no interest at all in MP Civ.

4552

We don’t know why Jon decided to leave - it could be timing with another project, some flame from his high school days might have showed up and introduced him to his kid he never knew, he might be getting shipped overseas as a cultural attaché - who knows? It’s only early if he doesn’t have a good reason and he’s not really beholden to explain any details to us.

I understand some people are dissappointed with it, but didn’t the game sell quite nicely?

Begging the question, it did it with an entirely new engine/game system, and did pretty well commercially so I’d be stunned if Firaxis decided to wrap it up. My guess is after the investment in the system, we’re going to see a return to variants such as an Alpha Centauri/Dinosaur/whatever setting coming out within a year or two.

In the meantime, I suspect there will be some expansions to Civ V - it’s still a cash cow, and I don’t see why they’d shift away from it. Casual gamig is a growing market (as much as I hate to admit it) and it makes sense to work on that as well, but it’s not like they have to do one to the exclusion of the other.

4553

I think we’ll be seeing plenty of micro-expansions via Steam in the future.

4554

Wasn’t Jon the AI programmer in addition to being the Lead Designer? That does worry me, in that it might mean we don’t see further improvements on the AI.

Regardless, good luck Jon, where ever you’ve decided to move to.

4555

Well, Ive finished some games post patch. Bumped up the difficulty from my usual prince to king and I’m still pretty bored in games. A lot of empty space in maps, cities are indistinguishable from each other, terrain is still boring to work with, except for happiness buildings I couldn’t care less what to build next. Techs are fast to get to and there isn’t really that many decisions to take on what to go next. I find myself thinking well, I could continue teching up and hitting next turn or well I guess I’ll just go and finish the computers up and the game.

I was primarily a civ builder type player. This game does almost nothing for me. Even tho I love how it looks and how the culture works and how I could technically work so many more tiles having a super city, nothing really works for it.

Units are still a pain to move around, they forget where they are going, get lost inside cities, workers and great persons fuck pathing A LOT, there’s still delays when fortifying or passing turn or whatever on units so getting to click next turn makes it more grating.

Blah, this patch did almost nothing for me.

4556

In a “glass half full” way, it may be a good thing then. He might be out of the way such that someone with greater capabilities on the AI front might be able to step in and fix the mess.

Please note, in no way is that a shot against Mr. Schaefer. He put out a complex and rich design and game, and should be proud of the work he has done. Just that sometimes when there is a problem that people seem to keep stumbling over (the patches that really haven’t improved the AI), some fresh blood can be helpful to see things from a different angle.

Of course, realistically, my fear is that Firaxis will say, “The money’s already in the bank,” and give up on it, or at least charge us another $30 or $60 for an expansion or two before they finally get it to be passable.

4557

This is the sad truth of PC strategy gaming. It’s had a long history of amazing games, but I think we’re in its final days.

4558

Where is the d0medness meter when you need it?

4559

There’s still a market for grognard-friendly games, it’s just not in the AAA marketplace.

Then again, the AAA marketplace is a really hostile place these days- I don’t even know if AAA games belong in the AAA marketplace, except for the most well-funded, risk-minimized titles.

4560

I mean, Civ 4 sold like hotcakes from what I recall? Clearly the strategy market is still there, it just seems to me like Civ 5 wasn’t really needed at this time. Felt rushed, and with the core gameplay they changed, why not just call it an offshoot? I’ve been a hardcore fan of Civ since the first game; each new game in the series was satisfying, except for Civ 5, which felt more like a war simulator than a game based on founding and managing a civilization.