Actually, Therlun, what you describe is a prefectly balanced system in my eyes. Both nearby and far away empires have things that may positively or adversely influence your relations with them. And it gives you control about with whom you get friends with, and with whom enemy. If keeping your own empire is that much more important to you than keeping your neighbour happy - well, better have a good lawyer … err … a good army at the ready. :)

War in CiV makes much more sense if you think of the other AI players as people also trying to win a board game - everyone plays nice until they realize they are out of land and can’t expand when they want to, then SOMEONE has to get taken out and that’s going to be a combination of the closest/weakest Civ. Sometimes that’s you, sometimes it’s a Civ just passed you but if you deny Open Boarders it BECOMES you since they can’t cross to their enemy. Stuff like that is easy to predict if you understand that the AI just want’s to win, as well.

Yeah, there’s always a tension between the players acting like real nations/diplomacy and the nations acting like they are playing the same game. Everyone should betray and attack if you are running away with the game, no matter how nice you are – that’s the only way they might win.

a) Look up apologist.
b) Fewer.
c) Granted, it’s probably a lot easier to enjoy Civ 5 without people reminding you how Civ IV did things.

-Tom, Civ IV apologist, luddite, [I]and[/I] fan

Doesn’t Civ IV have a diplomatic modifier for when you’re in the lead? The trick is making sure that you’ve cultivated enough positive diplomatic modifiers to offset it, or that you’re powerful enough not to care about other civs hating you. Using, for example, the religion system.

(Which I guess is an example of what Therlun was talking about earlier: “abusing” the diplomacy system by building up positive modifiers. Although I don’t understand why that’s abuse any more than building up positive modifiers to win combat. That’s like saying you’re “abusing” the combat system by defending from across a river, digging in your units, or purchasing veterancy upgrades.)

-Tom

I love Tom.

And I completely agree with point c, although probably not in the way it was intended. Once I started playing Civ 5 as a strategy game instead of thinking about it as a new Civ, I started enjoying it more. Now, I think of it as Call to Power 3. What that means is that I’m playing both IV and 5, and, yes, while there are aspects of 5 I like, I still like IV significantly more.

I don’t think so Tom. It might be more to do with the fact that as the game progresses, diplomatic options become more diverse. Demands to change civics, change religion, give away technologies, gold, resources, join in wars. Refusal gives a negative modifier of course, and the AI has a memory like an elephant, especially if the player declared war on them, or a friend, or if the player took and razed their capital, or their religion’s holy city. So the negative modifiers can really begin to stack.

Diplomacy really was a game in itself in IV, and I really miss that depth in V. I’m sure there are some parts still there, but it doesn’t present itself as neatly as in IV.

And should Civ IV discussion be taken out of the Civ V thread?

Strato, I’d have to doublecheck, but I’m almost certain that among the diplomatic modifiers are things as blatant as “you’re getting close to a victory condition”. I might be confused by something in the Dune mod, however, which is my most recent experience with Civ IV. But even in basic Civ IV, I thought that as you start to pull ahead in the game, you cause diplomatic tension with other civs beyond the increasing diversity of modifiers you mentioned.

But the bottom line is that Civ IV has a much richer, more interactive, and – arguably most importantly – more above-the-board diplomacy system than Civ 5.

 -Tom

Well I for one am having a ball with this latest patch to CIV V. I have been presented with a very challenging and engaging tactical situation as the Aztecs vs the Romans. They have the slight edge in technology which I was ok with, until he brought out the crossbow men. now I have been beaten back to my cities and just now got cannons to hopefully beat them down! I love the new social policy balancing, honor is a great warmongering tree when you get the bonus gold and XP (and double bonus culture for Aztecs vs the Barbs!)

The less/fewer part wasn’t intentional. I can turn that into an advantage though as mixing up fewer and less simply is a charming trait like my sexy foreign accent.

The apologist part was intentional. I was trying to show my disdain for your persisting and to me unexplainable hate for Civ5. If your only issue with it is that you don’t like it, why do you keep posting in the Civ 5 thread? I’m not defending what you perceive a bad game (being an apologist as I understand it), I am showing my annoyance about the never ending presence of someone admitting of disliking a game yet refusing to let people who do not share his view have game related discussions without him insisting of knowing the objective truth.
If you wrote in your blog about how much you hate Civ 5 I wouldn’t mind. Maybe I would enjoy the article itself despite not sharing it’s opinion. But you keep coming to a Civ 5 thread only to tell everyone how terrible it is, how much better Civ 4 is, and how everyone who thinks otherwise must somehow do something wrong. Unlike other people who prefer Civ 4 in this thread you only come here to insult people who like Civ 5 or present one liner opinions as fact without basing them on anything.
But the bottom line is that Civ V has a much richer, more interactive, and – arguably most importantly – more above-the-board diplomacy system than Civ 4.

Implying that I am secretly preferring Civ 4, with some unknown factor making me pretend to like Civ 5 better doesn’t make me want to engage in a game related discussion with you either.

I don’t go around attacking Civ 4 fans otherwise. When people have an opinion completely opposite to mine regarding Civ5 while being apologetic to the very same issues with other games and they refuse to shut up about it in otherwise well mannered threads discussing Civ 5, only then I can’t resist to post.
Yet my issue is not a Civ 4-Civ 5 one, but your inability to discuss the two games without insulting anyone who might like Civ 5.

You are right Tom. I went back and had a look:

This is only relevant for up to Warlords I believe, however as I was reading through, the commentary suggested not much changed in BtS.

There is a lot there to try and grind through the brain, and sadly having come off from working night shift, my brain power isn’t really able to work out much of what is discussed. But there is some hidden modifiers based on the relative score ranks of the player vs the AI.

Wait a minute, didn’t this quarrel spring from a harmless discussion about which diplomacy model to favor?

Regarding that topic - contrary to Therlun, I believe it’s actually Civ5 AI civs that hate you all the time for no reason. Or, maybe hate you isn’t the right word, you cannot even build up any level of trust with Civ5 AIs.
I completely agree with the assessment that they play like boardgame players that are out to win. Which, to ME, is all wrong for a Civ title.
Like when playing, say Monopoly, you don’t build up alliances with other players. When you land on someone’s three hotels, you gonna have to pay up, and likewise when a Civ5 AI thinks you’re in the way, it’s DoW time.
Unless you’re playing on some heavily modified houserules, it’s just not intended that, in Monopoly, the other player offers you not to pay him any rent because he has a good chance to land on one of your hotels on the next turn. Likewise, the Civ5 AI often disregards the long time risks of it’s warplans - it needs something from you and DoWs to get it.

I’ve come to the conclusion that being able to enjoy Civ5 requires the player to embrace (or at least subconciously accept) that boardgame approach to a lot of things. Civ4 tried to better “simulate” stuff, Civ5 abstracts it to get it out of the way.


rezaf

Well, I’m very touchy about Tom and Civ 5 I have to admit… :P

Isn’t the described everyone ganging up on the leading guy (badboy in the Paradox Games) a staple of all the Civs though? Isn’t that what makes it boardgamish? That very negative modifier for runaway player nations.
I never managed to coexist peacefully with a Civ neighbour for a prolonged amount of time. In my mind Civ AIs who share borders with you are always enemies, in all the Civ-like games.

I just don’t see the different diplomacy experience you describe for Civ 4. Can you you elaborate on the trust building with (even anecdotal) Civ 4 examples?

Well, you can stack up positive modifiers.
Religion, Open Borders, Years of peaceful relations, You helped us during wartime, Our trade relationships have been fair and forthrigh, We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources etc.
I don’t think I have ever seen a nation with which high modifiers had been built up declare war outright in Civ4.
In Civ5 … it’s all toss a coin.

“You know … I’m aware that I declared you my best friend just last turn, but now … I guess it’s time for you to die!”.


rezaf

Therlun, I’m posting in the Civ 5 thread because I like keeping up with strategy games, and not just the ones I like. I like reading about them. I like talking about them. I like knowing what’s changed in the latest patches. I like discussing things such as how religion and diplomacy are modeled in different games. You seem to expect this thread is only for people who adore the game, or have no criticisms of it. But that’s not the case with this thread, or any other thread about any subject. Discussions will naturally involve people with opinions different from yours.

Also, I’m not sure how you figure I’m insulting you. I suspect you still haven’t looked up the word apologist. As a fellow apologist for various other things, I guarantee it’s not an insult.

 -Tom

It’s pretty telling that diplomacy in Civ 5 was a closed black box when the game first came out. It’s almost as if the starting point was what Firaxis did with Civ Revolution, which was almost as much of a puzzle game as it was a strategy game. The diplomacy in that game was merely a way to buy a little time before you had to fight someone. It feels like that was the starting point for Civ 5, but Firaxis tried to walk it back a bit in the direction of Civ IV.

That said, it has changed quite a bit with the patches, right? Isn’t it easier to manage and predict now, what with the new options and tooltips telling you how much and why people like or don’t like you?

 -Tom

I could provide my own story of Gilgamesh of the Sumerian Empire who was blocked in by the borders of the One Great Indian Nation ruled by Asoka (my civ). In this game (my most recent) I was going through a series of wars, but never once have I declared, or been declared on by Gilgamesh, despite the -2 penalty for our close borders sparking tensions. Instead, I maintained good diplomatic ties with him, and a net modifier of +13, and him being quite pleased with me. It went higher, I know that, but when I fired up the save just now, there have been some modifiers that obviously went away, mostly random events, but also religion bonuses too. I should add that this game is right into the modern age now.

As I recall, we (albeit fortuitously) managed to share the same religion founded by someone else on the continent, his favourite civic was hereditary rule, which I was happy to use given my militaristic pushing I was doing, and I kept tabs on who his enemies were, and played the random events as they came up to ensure good relations. At any point, I could have rightly crushed him military wise, but he was more useful as a buffer on my south. And it was all tundra, crap place to build cities generally, let alone support.

But it wasn’t just Gilgamesh, I took the time and weighed up the whole diplomatic picture with most of the leaders on the continent, and made the decisions on who was the most powerful, who would likely be destroyed, or what wars would likely come up. It involves more than just building stuff, moving units around, researching a tech and pressing end turn, and seeing what happens. After the city info window (F1), I would say the diplomatic window is the next most powerful information tools in the game.

Gameplay can easily be affected by the people around me. I never got that in Civ V. All I got was a passive AI that was happy to leave me out of the picture. I never felt as though I had to go to war to aide an ally. In fact, I was happy to tell them to bugger off most of the time. Unless they attacked me, my only real diplomatic interactions was the initial meeting, or whatever weak arsed offers they’d provide.

In the link I provided in my last post, there are 25 items that will affect the civilisation’s attitude toward the player, some visible, some not in Civ IV. That is a lot to deal with. To complicate matters in Civ IV, I’d play with randomised leader personalities. Having Montezuma as a peaceful sort makes for a nice change. But it also means I have little to no idea how the AI will actually treat me, whether they will go to war at the drop of a hat, or to build their own empires quietly in the background.

Well, If you didn’t mean it is an insult I will have to apologize (heh). Is there really no negative connotation at all?
one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something.
There are so many words for proponents of something. Being an advocate, asserter, or even champion (I like that one). An apologist is someone who feels the need to defend some inherent weakness or drawback from my understanding.
Maybe I’m taking the apology-root too literal (my reply earlier was aimed that way), if so I’m sorry.

I was still stumbled about a positive comment you made at some point about Total War that directly contradicted a negative post about Civ5 at that time. I hold grudges for a long time. Ask anyone.

I must side with the Civ IV apologists here.
While I had forgotten quite how detailed the system in Civ IV had become (and still don’t remember how much of that was in the game before expansions?) I must agree that Civ V is much more gamey.
It should appeal more to those who want Civ to be a hardcore strategy game… but apparently doesn’t. For a buildertype like me, I much prefer games like what Strato describes - the computer AI simulating another somewhat rational civilization leader and not just pretending to be another player hellbent on world domination.
The modifiers are visible now, more have been added, but it still seems almost impossible to be on friendly terms with other Civilizations.

In one game I was slowly demolishing the Japanese Empire (who attacked me unprovoked), I was giving cities away to Montezuma because I couldn’t afford the happiness hits and I thought I could get a friendly neighbour… instead he hated me for being a warmonger and ended up declaring war on me, because my units were on his turf/surrounding him…

Diplomacy in Civ V is one thing I’d like to see improved - and I wouldn’t mind Religion to reappear in an expansion. It was one of the things from Civ IV I missed and naively I thought it was left out on purpose to have something for an expansion
(It’s not the only thing left out, but other stuff was either thrown out to streamline and improve or because they weren’t good (espionage) but Religion was great)

I’d like a comeback of religion, too, but only if Firaxis can come up with a new system that doesn’t rely on those infernal missionaries. I really like that Civ5 did away with the micromanagement of nuisance units, and I’d like the game to stay that way.