Kyle700
6321
Who needs iron working? We’ve got freaking MASONRY man.
That strangely reminds me if dwarf fortress. Seems like something that dwarves would do…
Fall Patch notes are up.
Looks like they are balancing mercantile to provide less crazy happiness amounts, lots of balance tweaking, and a horde of AI improvements. Nice!
Blips
6323
Oh wow I was beginning to think I’d never see a new patch at this rate!
meeper
6324
Lots of neat sounding improvements, especially to AI. I think this one is my favorite though (simple as it sounds):
Advanced settings are now persisted across multiple single player games.
Quicker restarting when you draw crappy starting terrain! Yay!
Nephrinn
6325
Finally, a restart button! :D
Some pretty big changes to AI and diplomacy. Can’t wait!
Janster
6326
Yes, finally, I hated setting up the bloody game anew over and over and over again when that desert city just didn’t seem very appealing…
It is, if you’re playing Gods & kings and aim for the Wonder Petra. 1 food, 1 hammer and 1 coin per desert tile on top of improvements made can quickly turn your desert city into a top hammer/food producing city.
It’s a sure win, even on Immortal.
Of course, that goes without saying.
On Emperor/Immortal. if you plan to have the city on a desert then make a beeline for the Currency tech. It may be difficult if the city takes over 20 turns to build Petra. But this is usually situational - you may get beaten to it by the AI if it has a city in the desert. Otherwise the AI usually ignores the Wonder.
But whatever the level of difficulty, it’s sure worth the risk to go for it though. Having the Petra wonder changed my playstyle - now I agressively scout for desert areas and think it’s a good start if there’s a huge desert around.
Miramon
6330
Yeah, these guys are supposed to be experienced designers. How do they come up with completely unbalanced stuff like Petra at this late stage in the history of Civ games, not to mention Civ V? For bonus effect, combine with desert faith, which you probably have since you started in a desert area…
Other randomly broken things include Isabella’s silly wonder bonus. Of course she might be unlucky and not find any wonders for a while, but it’s not impossible for her to get 2000 gold during the ancient period, too. I mean, just trip over the city of gold near your capitol and that’s 1,000 gold (2 free settlers) right there, and if you have the barrier reef nearby, that’s another 1,000 gold. But even 500 gold early on, which she is extremely likely to obtain, is a pretty damn big step up.
I appreciate that, like Master of Magic, there are just some more powerful combinations than others. Though I recognize that’s not cool for the multiplayer/competetive community. That doesn’t affect me, Civ is a single player game in my book.
KevinC
6332
You don’t have to be a multiplayer or competitive gamer (I’m the former, not the latter, when it comes to Civ5) to care about balance. Designers can go too far *(and often do) in their quest for balance where it makes everything feel homogenized and boring, though.
Miramon
6333
This is true, e.g. in D&D for the last few major releases, and GURPS and Hero System and other game systems where almost every power and ability has been flattened into a generic way to throw the same number of damage dice per level at enemies, or in any random MMO or 4x game where the “next level” is always another thrilling +1% to something.
But Petra is just ridiculous. Why have they spent the last couple of years carefully tweaking little cultural trait features to keep them in line, carefully adjusting costs and benefits of city state alliances, carefully making tiny little changes to the effects of city buildings, etc. etc. etc., only to introduce an early-stage wonder that is easily twice as good as any other in the game for desert cities?
KevinC
6334
My problem with the Petra is that it’s so good I tend to settle/plan a city around it. If I get it, it’s pretty much the best city in the world. If something happens and another Civ gets it (which at this point in the game I don’t have a whole lot of control over) then I have a worthless city I can’t get rid of. I kind of wish it were a National Wonder or there were some other mechanism to make desert cities half decent if you’re not able to build it before the AI.
I don’t understand the complaints about Petra. The following statement sums up the contradictory sentiments about the wonder.
But that’s exactly the point! The powerfulness of Petra is offset by the fact that you have a useless city if things don’t go right. High risk high reward. Besides if you’re planning for Petra, you won’t be researching for composite archers or Civil Rights or going for the Oracle. How do you like it if there’s a massive army bearing down on your capital while you’re researching something as relatively weak as Currency. But if you pulled it off, the Petra city vindicates your early risk taking.
Anyway I hope the developers don’t nerf Petra, otherwise it will be like any other wonder and will make for a bland, generic dull game.
KevinC
6336
The risk/reward aspect is in place for any wonder - shooting for the Oracle, Great Library, Notre Dame, whatever - the Petra just happens to be amazingly good in the payoff. I’m not saying it needs to be nerfed or anything, but I do think it is significantly better than other options (assuming you have a place that can utilize it, of course).
I might also find the risk/reward decision more engaging if it were more strategic decision and less straight gamble. I can’t think of many tools at that stage of the game to determine what the risk is. That’s all just my personal preference, though.
As you’ve pointed out, the risk for Petra is significantly higher. With the Oracle, you lose just the hammers. But with Petra you lose the hammers AND get stuck with a crappy desert city.
Now try winning a game on Immortal with a crappy city that’s a drag on your social policy research. It’s a vicious circle.
With such a high risk, the payoff should be good. I think this is what the developers recognised and balanced accordingly.
KevinC
6338
All fair points. From your posts, sangkancil, I’m thinking my prior posts were worded poorly when I said “My problem with the Petra…”. I wasn’t referring to a game design problem per se, I meant that as a “me” problem in terms of how much I like/dislike the wonder, I’m not making a game design judgement on the Wonder itself. I do wish there were more tools at that stage of the game to let me gauge what the odds were to make it more of a calculated risk rather than a pure gamble, but that’s not unique to the Petra.
Miramon
6339
Suppose you start with a nice desert capital with a river through it, so you have a decent supply of flood hexes along with the desert mountains, oases, incense spots, etc.? Then you aren’t even screwed if you don’t get the Petra, but you are an unstoppable juggernaut if you do.
TurinTur
6340
