1741

From what I’ve seen, I really like the new Civics system. It seems like a fun and interesting way to customize your Civ. I’m looking forward to it.

Probably my biggest concern is that they seem to have toned down the Wonders and Civ-specific powers. This should make the game more balanced, but potentially less fun. Consider for example the Great Library, which used to be teh awesome, but now gives just one free technology. An awful lot of the wonders seem like they would be useful, but not something to get super-excited about. There are no Leonardo’s workshops in this version of Civ.

Civ-specific units seem a bit underwhelming too – Civ4’s Praetorian used to be 1/3rd more powerful than a Swordsman, whereas Civ5’s Legion is only 18% more powerful than a Swordsman (you could make that up in a single promotion). Rome used to be a fearful opponent in the early game, now it only has a slight advantage. Again more balanced, more bland, less fun.

I wonder if multi-player had a role in shaping the wonders, powers, and civ-specific units. It does seem like the more balanced approach is better for multi-player even if it is less fun for single-player.

Also it seems like a relatively small number of units compared to previous Civs – closer to CivRevs unit list than Civ2s massive list. Plus I still think GDR is incredibly stupid.

1742

Luke, I think these are all perfectly legitimate concerns except for feature creep. As I said in post above, Firaxis seems to have a done a good job in avoiding feature creep. If anything I’m worried about taking out too many things, religion, espionage, cultural flipping etc.

AI is my number one concern and it is entirely possible that eager young reviewers, were so enamored by the streamlined interface and the fun of a more detailed combat system, that they ignored the AI.

After reading a string of excellent reviews, I’m not as concerned.

On the other hand, one of my most anticipated games of the last few years was Spore. I was at GDC and I watched Will Wriight give a phenomenal demos twice. The early review were generally very good, and yet I along with much of this forum ended up being very very disappointed.
Keeping expectations in check, and being cautious about buying games based on hype is undoubtedly a wise strategy. You can always tell pioneers by the arrows in their backs. But if you don’t see me post next week it isn’t because I am bleeding.

1743

Here’s the thing - if you go back and play Civ1 and Railroad Tycoon 1, you’ll find that those games are comparatively streamlined and even simple. Sid spent his early years at Microprose making detailed sims, so when he did those games he was going for a more simplistic, board game type approach. The sequels, primarily driven by different designers, have added things that have made the core game more complicated. So, I don’t think you can claim that to whatever degree Civ 5 has been streamlined, it is contrary to Sid’s ideas.

1744

I think we are in violent agreement. I’m saying that because of Sid’s influence that Civ 5 has been streamlined. If not directly than because of his work on CivRev. The limitation of the console probably necessitated making the game simpler and faster, but I also think simplifying is natural inclination of Sid Meier.

I’d even go as far as saying that having somebody in your studio, harping on “more isn’t necessarily better” is a very valuable thing. I frankly wish that more studios making strategy games adopted this philosophy. This true even though, I generally SAY I want more complexity in my games…

1745

But said Legions can also make roads and forts.

You have to consider that theres less units in the game as well. So you can’t have them be too powerful or they’ll just steamroll through people. Theres no stacks of doom to counteract the other guy’s units being significantly stronger than yours.

1746

Got it. I thought you were suggesting that Sid’s earlier titles were complicated.

As for Civ5, I was playing a little Civ4 today and I really, really hope that they got rid of the AIs tendency, even on lower difficulty levels, to aggressively attack you. I was playing as the Americans and took out the Incas early on because I was boxed in. After a bit of consolidation, I suddenly had Persia declare war on me after a single demand was refused, and they were soon joined by my other neighbor, a supposedly peaceful civ. And it’s not like I didn’t have a good military - two units/per city that was near my border and all other cities garrisoned. Even my military advisor screen said I was in good shape. This part of Civ4 has always been the most frustrating for me, the early AI initiated war for no apparent reason.

1747

I am so looking forward to this. Literally every problem I had with Civ IV when I eventually gave up playing it has been squarely and directly addressed in Civ V. Next week needs to be this week.

1748

It would indeed be great if more of those people existed. We’d have more games with solid concepts instead of ‘cool’ features.
I think Civ 5 has such a solid design that is yet to be appreciated (because… it hasn’t launched yet :D). It’s as close to a board game as an absurdly complex computer game such as civ can possibly be. What clicked this for me is the fact that Domination now means capturing only the capital. Everything is gameplay oriented, everything has a clear purpose. I tend to think Jon’s the mastermind behind this, and Sid behind the streamlined interface as you have said.

But what actually made me reply to your post is this: I think you may well demand more complexity in your games, as long as it’s complexity of strategy, i.e. depth. A great design should have no shortage of that. Complexity of features & interface is what we should see less of.

1749

Unfortunately I’m not at the 50-post threshold for posting links, but if you go to the gametrailers (.com) website, search for “civilization”, and you’ll find it listed under the title “Comprehensive Walkthrough”.

If that gets your blood flowing then take a look at the two 60 minute developer live streams that were posted earlier in this thread.

1750

Try GameTrailers here you can download a 720p version. The same video is up at Gamespot at a bit lower resolution.

1751

I’d say Civ4 is about perfect for me in terms of complexity, particularly as Soren did such a great job coming up with clean mechanics. Civ4 with expansions is a bit too messy, although I don’t know if it’s so much the complexity that’s the problem as it was messing with Soren’s beautiful clean design. Paradox games OTOH is too much complexity for me.

1752

The two hour developer stream is also on YouTube, in 8 parts. Watching those converted me from “probably” to “hell yes!” on Civ5, despite some of my concerns about the changes. Even if Tom tells us next week that Civ5 is the worst Civ since those Activision ones, I’ll still be getting it.

1753

Civilization: Lawyers. That was a fun one.

1754

Civ 5 is the first game I have ever pre-ordered.

It made my break my rule about that.

I can’t wait.

1755

i hate you all , pre-ordered from amazon :(

1756

I wanted to look over the tech tree in a treeish format, so I made it from the manual.

1757

I’ll mention it here because its kinda funny.

The Giant Death Robot doesn’t require Robotics.

A minor oversight, but a pretty silly one.

1758

That’ll get patched for sure. =D

1759

I just got around to watching that video (thanks for the link). It’s the first HD video that I’ve gotten a look at, and the game is even more beautiful than I thought. The “American” tileset looks fantastic, and when they zoom into the present at the end, the size 21 modern city looks better than I could have imagined.

1760

You need Biology though, it must all be organic subsystems.