Civilization V

JMR · 2010-09-20T09:01:30.000Z

Over at Civfanatics forums:

worrying review: Tom Chick says AI and diplomacy are dumb. Has “serious problems”

Who?

Heh.

TurinTur · 2010-09-20T09:03:52.000Z

It’s kind of funny how a two lines comment is now a review.

Paulus · 2010-09-20T09:04:52.000Z

Hello all. Tom’s comments aren’t too worrying. Almost every strategy game has sub-par AI at launch, but as Naeblis said over time it is improved upon and fixed through patches. As long as the AI isn’t brain dead or broken, I’m thinking we will be ok.

Lorini · 2010-09-20T09:27:52.000Z

He said the AI has serious problems. What that means I can’t tell. If it has ‘serious problems’ at Deity, well I’ll never play at that level. If it has ‘serious problems’ at Settlers, well I’ll never play at that level either :)

So we will have to wait and see. I think he’s doing a review (a real one; those comments are not a review) somewhere this week, so I’m sure all will be explained there. I just wish he’d give us a sneak preview.

schurem · 2010-09-20T09:32:14.000Z

i just wish it were bloody friday already.

Cult_of_Jared · 2010-09-20T09:41:56.000Z

Didn’t they release the AI dll for Civ 4? Anyone know if they have similar plans for this version?

I know very little about this stuff, but using a neural net to program the civ AI might be a fun project.

Woolen_Horde · 2010-09-20T09:54:28.000Z

The pdf manual looks awesome on my ipad :)

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-20T09:57:50.000Z

Paulus:

Hello all. Tom’s comments aren’t too worrying. Almost every strategy game has sub-par AI at launch, but as Naeblis said over time it is improved upon and fixed through patches. As long as the AI isn’t brain dead or broken, I’m thinking we will be ok.

I don’t want a broken AI at launch, only to be fixed after a multitude of annoying patches. I want a decent AI at launch.

— Alan

Paulus · 2010-09-20T10:06:20.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

I don’t want a broken AI at launch, only to be fixed after a multitude of annoying patches. I want a decent AI at launch.

— Alan

Alan,

I understand and agree with your point. I just would not be surprised if the tactical AI is a little sub-par right now.

Miramon · 2010-09-20T10:16:50.000Z

No strategy game should have sub-par AI at launch. But it does seem like it’s an afterthought for some bizarre reason much of the time, and most often there is not even the weak excuse of multiplayer to justify it. Not that AI is easy, especially for programmers who haven’t had the right training, but you’d think it would be budgeted better in a strategy game.

Blackadar · 2010-09-20T10:18:17.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

I don’t want a broken AI at launch, only to be fixed after a multitude of annoying patches. I want a decent AI at launch.

— Alan

As do all of us. I doubt it’s Elemental-level borked. But it is worth remembering that Civ’s AI has never been rock-solid on release and gets improved over time.

Anaxagoras · 2010-09-20T10:22:28.000Z

Miramon:

No strategy game should have sub-par AI at launch. But it does seem like it’s an afterthought for some bizarre reason much of the time, and most often there is not even the weak excuse of multiplayer to justify it. Not that AI is easy, especially for programmers who haven’t had the right training, but you’d think it would be budgeted better in a strategy game.

I think the problem is that you’re coding the AI against a product in development; i.e. a moving target. Sure, you should have thoroughly thought out design specs to code against, and I’m sure they usually do. But that’s no substitude for actual tests against the final working product, and AI developers simply don’t have that luxury… until the game is finished & released.

I suppose the answer to that could be “Just let the product sit on the shelf for X months while the AI gets perfected”, but that just doesn’t happen in the real world.

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-20T10:31:38.000Z

Steam just sent down an 8MB addition of sorts to the preload, not sure what it is.

— Alan

Chris_Nahr · 2010-09-20T10:35:08.000Z

Preorder bonus maybe?

schurem · 2010-09-20T10:35:19.000Z

fixed AI i bet :P

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-20T10:54:17.000Z

Chris Nahr:

Preorder bonus maybe?

schurem:

fixed AI i bet :P

Could be either, but one is likely (a “day 1” patch or the preorder bonus).

Miramon · 2010-09-20T10:57:09.000Z

Anaxagoras:

I think the problem is that you’re coding the AI against a product in development; i.e. a moving target. Sure, you should have thoroughly thought out design specs to code against, and I’m sure they usually do. But that’s no substitude for actual tests against the final working product, and AI developers simply don’t have that luxury… until the game is finished & released.

I suppose the answer to that could be “Just let the product sit on the shelf for X months while the AI gets perfected”, but that just doesn’t happen in the real world.

Yeah, that would make sense if the problem was that the AI fails to account for a feature added near the end of development or doesn’t manage its production well due to late-breaking tweaks and stuff like that.

But more often than not, strategic combat AI can be paraphrased by “stream units on shortest path from production to the nearest enemy target.” When you see behavior like this, it’s not because there were problems with specs getting revised and balance being changed. It’s because the programmer didn’t know how do to anything better, or because the programmer was given insufficient resources to work with.

Equisilus · 2010-09-20T12:00:19.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

Steam just sent down an 8MB addition of sorts to the preload, not sure what it is.

— Alan

Hmm, I noticed an update, too, but mine was 17.3 MB Updated (11.9 MB downloaded, whatever this means). This was for the deluxe edition. No specific details available.

Quaro · 2010-09-20T12:12:00.000Z

Tom is always hyper critical of AI in strategy games. I usually prefer having a more interesting game than changing the game itself to make it easier for the AI to excel at. Tom usually seems to think they should have made a different game if they couldn’t get the AI to play strongly, but I’m fine with giving it bonuses.

Also as someone who has done some programming I know how hard it is, so I’m sympathetic.

Equisilus · 2010-09-20T12:14:42.000Z

I expect I’ll be bad enough at Civ games that I won’t notice a poor AI…unless I start winning more often than I should. So, I’m good with it. ;)