Civilization V

Rock8man · 2010-09-20T15:18:20.000Z

TomChick:

I’ll have a full review up on 1up tomorrow, since I’ve asked my editor for extra time so I can see the day-0 patch. I have some additional issues with the press build that will hopefully be addressed when the game goes live tonight (it is tonight, right?).

Unfortunately, it is not tonight. The game is supposed to unlock tomorrow at 10am Eastern.

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-20T15:18:55.000Z

The live timer on Steam claims 16 hours from now, which is 10AM Eastern tomorrow.

— Alan

mtkafka · 2010-09-20T15:24:16.000Z

TomChick:

I’ll have a full review up on 1up tomorrow, since I’ve asked my editor for extra time so I can see the day-0 patch.
-Tom

why does this remind me of elemental?!? haha. kidding. it can’t be THAT bad (I love elemental btw!@)

Equisilus · 2010-09-20T15:25:36.000Z

DeathMonkey:

Only one set of mutually exclusive policies can be active at a time. If you’ve unlocked a number of policies in a specific branch, then choose a tech from a mutually exclusive branch, all of the first branch’s policy benefits will be disabled. If you switch back, you will not lose of your progress in the original branch and all your abilities will be reactivated.

There is Anarchy when you switch between mutually exclusive social policies. It’s not as frequent in Civ5 as it has been in the previous Civ games because you’re usually not switching between major opposing groups frequently during the same game, unlike governments in the earlier Civs.

Thanks for that. Sounds like it works as I would have expected based on past experience with Civ4. There’s the usual diplomatic benefit/hit for having similar/different social policies this time around, too?

TomChick:

But the reason the AI issues are particularly noteworthy in Civ 5 is that the new combat system is such an important feature of the game. The AI in Civ 4 was able to brute force its way through combat well enough, for the most part. But the AI in Civ 5 almost makes warfare a non-issue. :(

Non-issue? Wow, that’s strong. How would your rate your ability that you see combat as a non-issue (i.e. at what difficulty would you play normally)? Would combat be as obviously poor at low difficulties as it is on high difficulties for someone who rates themselves at those ability levels? Sorry if that sounds odd, I’m just trying to determine if I (who usually played Civ4 no higher than Noble and rarely won on that) would see the same poor AI.

Otagan · 2010-09-20T15:25:46.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

The live timer on Steam claims 16 hours from now, which is 10AM Valve time tomorrow.

Big difference.

Mark_L · 2010-09-20T15:29:34.000Z

According to the manual, the computer begins to get bonuses (“cheating”) over Noble difficulty. It does not say that any superior AI is engaged at higher difficulty levels.

Lorini · 2010-09-20T15:33:42.000Z

On the 2k forums, one of the CM’s said that the AI uses a better decision table at higher levels. At low levels it’s decisions are basically randomly chosen from a decision table that includes bad and better decisions. At above Prince levels the AI chooses from a decision table that includes good and better decisions.

Now if this info is what Tom was experiencing, then there’s the explanation. But I doubt it because a bad AI is a bad AI.

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-20T15:37:23.000Z

"Alan Dunkin:

The live timer on Steam claims 16 hours from now, which is 10AM Valve time tomorrow. (text modified in bold by Otagan)

Otagan:

Big difference.

Uhhh, no. 16 hours from now is 7AM PDT. Which is 10AM EDT. Jesus, can people not do math any more?

— Alan

Calelari · 2010-09-20T15:38:45.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

Uhhh, no. 16 hours from now is 7AM PDT. Which is 10AM EDT. Jesus, can people not do math any more?

I believe the (attempted, possibly humorous) point is that Valve and Steam have a reputation for not being punctual.

tomchick · 2010-09-20T15:40:10.000Z

Equisilus:

Non-issue? Wow, that’s strong. How would your rate your ability that you see combat as a non-issue (i.e. at what difficulty would you play normally)? Would combat be as obviously poor at low difficulties as it is on high difficulties for someone who rates themselves at those ability levels? Sorry if that sounds odd, I’m just trying to determine if I (who usually played Civ4 no higher than Noble and rarely won on that) would see the same poor AI.

You will easily win wars that you should have lost. That’s what I mean by a non-issue. The tactical combat is a central feature of Civ 5, and from what I’ve seen, the AI cannot use the tools the player gets to use. This effectively turns a strategy game into a puzzle game. See Civilization Revolution for another example of this.

  -Tom

Mark_L · 2010-09-20T15:40:12.000Z

Lorini:

On the 2k forums, one of the CM’s said that the AI uses a better decision table at higher levels. At low levels it’s decisions are basically randomly chosen from a decision table that includes bad and better decisions. At above Prince levels the AI chooses from a decision table that includes good and better decisions.

Now if this info is what Tom was experiencing, then there’s the explanation. But I doubt it because a bad AI is a bad AI.

Gaaaah that just annoys me, because in that case there is no way to decouple the supposedly better AI from the bonuses it gets at higher difficulties.

Rock8man · 2010-09-20T15:40:33.000Z

Valve Time was the reference being made. In other words, don’t rely on the timer being accurate. The game could be delayed because of technical reasons tomorrow.

Squee · 2010-09-20T15:40:38.000Z

No kidding. I’m still waiting to be able to buy Delve Deeper, which was supposed to be released today, and has been for sale for quite a while on other stores.

Otagan · 2010-09-20T15:41:27.000Z

Alan Dunkin:

Uhhh, no. 16 hours from now is 7AM PDT. Which is 10AM EDT. Jesus, can people not do math any more?

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

EDIT: And I’m beaten to explaining my own joke. Awesome.

tomchick · 2010-09-20T15:41:36.000Z

Lorini:

On the 2k forums, one of the CM’s said that the AI uses a better decision table at higher levels. At low levels it’s decisions are basically randomly chosen from a decision table that includes bad and better decisions. At above Prince levels the AI chooses from a decision table that includes good and better decisions.

Uh, so if we want an AI that can avail itself of the tactical combat, we also have to play an AI that gets an economic bonus? If this is how it works, this strikes me as a really poor way to implement difficulty levels.

  -Tom

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-20T15:44:05.000Z

TomChick:

Uh, so if we want an AI that can avail itself of the tactical combat, we also have to play an AI that gets an economic bonus? If this is how it works, this strikes me as a really poor way to implement difficulty levels.
  -Tom

I don’t see how decision tables and bonuses actually go together, they are totally different systems and ways of implementing an AI opponent.

— Alan

Pod · 2010-09-20T15:47:08.000Z

I’ve spammed this in a few other places on the internet, but I thought it’d be fun to place it here (BECAUSE YOU’RE ALL DEAD OLD AND THAT)’

"I just realised something…

I played hundreds of hours of Civ 1 on the Amiga, whilst I was at Primary school.
I played a similar amount of Civ 2 whilst at High School.*
I played a lot of Civ 3 whilst at College.
I played a lot Civ 4 whilst at Uni.
And I’ll probably play Civ 5 a bit in this post-degree, working life.
In almost all cases there’s no overlap. One period for each game.

I wonder what era Civ 6 will usher in for me, or if I’ll play it at all :o
Infact, I’d better be doing something different by the time Civ 6 rolls around, or I’ll have ruined this little life-symmetry that I have going on"

DaleKent · 2010-09-20T15:54:27.000Z

TomChick:

Uh, so if we want an AI that can avail itself of the tactical combat, we also have to play an AI that gets an economic bonus? If this is how it works, this strikes me as a really poor way to implement difficulty levels.
  -Tom

The AI is better now.

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-20T16:02:30.000Z

Pod:

I wonder what era Civ 6 will usher in for me, or if I’ll play it at all :o

“So what are those grandkids up to, these days?” ;)

Strollen · 2010-09-20T16:02:31.000Z

TomChick:

You will easily win wars that you should have lost. That’s what I mean by a non-issue. The tactical combat is a central feature of Civ 5, and from what I’ve seen, the AI cannot use the tools the player gets to use. This effectively turns a strategy game into a puzzle game. See Civilization Revolution for another example of this.
  -Tom

Ok I’ll start my first game at King rather than Prince. Hopefully there will be an AI patch soon. I had hoped that given the similarities to chess (one unit per hex) that they could modify some of the chess AI algorithms obviously I was wrong