Civilization VI

Overall I’m fairly pleased with how the AI is handling itself, but I have two questions.

1 - I was Friends with 3 of them, but of those only one did I have an option to create an alliance. I did (Russia/Faith alliance) and when that ended, all my other Friend declarations ended the same turn (probably because I initiated it all the same turn).

However, NONE of the three Civs wanted to renew friendships? One of them, Kongo, I had literally liberated and returned their city to them! And all three where very close to the right side of that friendly bar, with TONS of positive modifiers and only one or two negatives. What the what? Guys, I thought we were friends?

So I don’t really get how come alliances can be offered sometimes but not others, nor do I understand why they refused friendship this time.

2 - During an Emergency, as Genghis Khan stole a city from Kongo, everyone was invited to take one of his cities (the one he stole) from him, if we won we’d get a pot of 4k gold to split. I signed up, and… no one else did. Not even Kongo, who was the one that just lost the city!? I managed to take his city (it wasn’t as easy as you guys would have me believe - he had several horse mounted troops and I had one swordsman+battering ram, two spearmen, and 1 archer and only the swordsman/battering ram group survived in the end) and got all the goodies to myself, but I thought it was strange Kong didn’t even try and help take the city back.

So the AI is maybe better, but still confusing and if it’s working correctly, it should be more transparent to the player as to why things are happening, even if it doesn’t make sense for the player to know, imo.

Vanilla Civ 6 was the first version (I’ve been around since the first one) that I totally bounced off of because even though I’m a builder type it just bored the crap out of me.

Decided this weekend to give R&F a shot and it has in my technical opinion improved the game by a “shit-ton”. Had two long sessions with ‘just one more turn’ figuring heavily. And I agree with you that the AI while not amazing seems much improved.

@robc04: I have not yet gone for domination victory, just because I’m a pacifist builder at heart, but I might try it soon. I’m playing a Deity game now that may leave me no choice, lol. I have gone for religious victory once or twice. As you say, it’s slower because you have to move all those units around. To mitigate that, I’ve started playing on smaller maps – small being my go-to choice for now. In an ideal world, I prefer playing on larger maps, but small maps have their charms.

@Scotch_Lufkin: I’ve sometimes had AIs want to renew friendships immediately. In my most recent game, Korea and Georgia both dialed me up to ask to renew a friendship. More often, I’m the one who seeks to renew. In most cases, they agree to it, but in some they do not. I’ve found that sending them a gift sometimes helps grease the wheels enough to induce them to accept renewed friendship. I usually wait a turn after the gift; I’m not sure if that’s necessary. Once I manage to renew friendship, renewing an alliance is not as difficult.

As for alliances, a friendship is a precondition, right? Also, presumably the AI can’t already have an alliance of the type you request, and conversely you can have only one of each type of alliance. So in my most recent game I always had a couple alliance options greyed out because either I or the AI already had committed to that type with someone else.

I’ve only ever gotten an alliance to level 2; has anyone gotten higher than that?

@path12 - I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it. That’s basically been my experience. I played vanilla some when it released, but I’ve put in FAR more time on R&F.

I do find that I need to take breaks to avoid burnout. And I don’t insist that I play every game to its conclusion, unless I’m chasing an Achievement. R&F has made the midgame much more interesting, and even the endgame now has its merits, but I’m always excited to explore a new map with a new civ. I now use “Shuffle” when choosing maps!

I think I found my problem with Civ games. Ok so in the typical game, I build a decent 3 archer army to defend against barbs and enemy civ. Then it’s just too tempting to use that army to take the enemy’s capital before they are a threat. After all, I already sunk the costs into the army.

Okay, well, take one capital. Get powerful. Ah, might as well take out the other capital and/or commit a bit of light genocide and secure my continent. Okay, done.

Skip turns wait wait wait oh more civs halfway across the world. Then I get bored because it’s really annoying to ship units across continents. I also can’t decide and start fuzzing about growing, getting more districts/cities and don’t focus on an actual victory type. 100 more turns of building stuff and go culture? Or do I build build go science? or why not just take 2-3 more capitals and win?

The solution is apparently just to raise difficulty. I guess I’ll leave scrub Prince level.

Yeah, I was friends with all three but the “offer alliance” button was completely missing for two of the three AI’s. It’s after you click that button you select the type of alliance, so unless both those guys had all 5 types already, I suspect something else. I had thought maybe I needed some sort of open borders or something first, but I had that already, so I’m trying to figure it out (while being at work and not able to take a close look at it - this happened this morning playing a bit before work, so it’s possible I am just over looking something).

I’ve never had anyone refuse friendships if I had the bar up high, so I don’t know what to tell you. I also have had all alliances accepted (you can have one of each type). On one of my games I had 3 or 4 alliances at the same time.

I have had someone go from being good friends to declaring war on me fairly quickly.

@Scotch_Lufkin, from a quick search it looks like the other civs need to able the ability to make alliances too (Civil Service?).

Ah! Yeah, that would make sense then, I am leading in Science (and 3rd or 4th in every other category, I’m pleased to report) so that tracks. Thanks!

How does the pacing feel for the setting that is one step slower than normal game speed? I think the game can benefit from not rushing through the tech tree so quickly.

Good question, robc04. I tried Marathon and Epic when vanilla shipped, and I enjoyed both, but they obviously take longer and I never finished either game. In R&F, Era points supposedly scale with game speed, but some people say they don’t scale enough – that is, that it’s too easy to get Era points on Marathon or Epic. I do plan to try both speeds in R&F eventually, and if I do, I’ll report back.

Cool, thanks. Maybe I’ll end up trying it myself too - not sure. I may jump over to another game for a bit.

My last Vanilla Civ VI game was a domination win. It was Prince difficulty, standard sized map, playing as Alexander of Macedon. Main thing with Domination is that it only requires taking enemy capitals, not complete decimation of the opponent. I started with an aggresively expanding Montezuma who placed a number of forward cities on my borders (remembering this is pre-Rise and Fall). I was procrastinating when it came to army deployment, but when gunpowder came around, I decided to start. As it turns out, classical/medieval era walls and units don’t stand up to bombard cannons and musketmen and I easily rolled through whatever defences Monte put up. I kid you not, cities were bombarbed and losing most or all of their health in one hit. Three bombards in my army was overkill. That war was the longest I did.

My second war was with Poland. She must’ve gotten screwed pretty badly having only 4 cities to her name and lagging behind everyone else. Once again, gunpowder units were too strong and I merrily took her two biggest cities. From there, the AI was moving into gunpowder, their cities were getting harder to crack in one turn, except Sumeria who was just plain silly rolling around with war carts. England and Japan I chose what cities I wanted and left the rest, much like with Poland. When it came to the final two opponents, Norway and Brazil, I decided it was much easier to travel by sea and simply snipe their capitals in a fairly quick raid. By that stage I’d moved onto tanks because the techs were rapidly flowing in thanks to my earlier conquests.

@robc04 - domination was faster compared to going for culture or science victories. Would I do domination on anything larger than standard? I don’t know. I have a lot of games to play that are better than Civ VI.

The last time I did domination on a big map that I can recall was in Civ IV, oddly enough as Alexander of Greece. That was a special game though, the map was extra large and it was a particular script that had the old world and new world and all civs started on the old world. In that game, I chose to run a specialist economy to keep my warring going, and conquered the whole of the old world for myself. That was one of my last Civ IV games, played on marathon speed and took in excess of 30 hours to complete thanks to the meticulous city management involved with a specialist economy.

I play solely on epic speed so I have a decent gunpowder era. It is a holdover from Civ IV where once I started playing on marathon speed I was hooked. I can’t justify marathon with Civ V/VI however, everything just takes too damn long to build. Or in other words, too many irritations for no real payoff. Units cost more, seeing the big numbers of turns required just to get a district down is quite demoralising and even with space race, it becomes a case of knowing I’ve won and just tapping end turn for too long to play it out. Epic does feel good and it will still punish me for making stupid mistakes while also getting a chance to make use of those units between classical era and atomic era. T nice thing about the slower game speeds with Civ IV is that you have to anticipate more of what is happening. For instance, not having a standing army means it can take so much longer to react to an invasion. Civ IV was especially brutal about it. Having Monte roll up on your doorstep with a stack of 20 units and I’ve got a piddly garrison force of 3 archers and nothing else means I wasted too much time on crap and I’ll probably lose big time before I can field a decent army.

One caveat with epic I noticed is that the general game pacing does get pretty bad. I found it easy to trigger golden ages. I’ve only ever been in one dark age in the two games I’ve played. I’ve learned to stop looking at the date and just focus on turn number now. Always an issue with Civ in general moreso with the later ones IMO.

Thanks for that write up Strato.

I think my problem with getting a domination victory is that I usually delay getting any type of military for quite a long time, so I start off behind and then really need to crank out units. But, I also keep going down the science victory path as a ‘back up’. I never fully commit to the military side of things. I was close in my last game as Genghis, and took out 2 Civs fairly fast. The next was even pretty close with their capital on the coast right next to me but I just never pulled the trigger. Then the thought of needing to travel by sea and fight to the middle of the continent just made by go science victory.

I was afraid anything put standard speeds would screw up the Age system. Still, it way be worth trying for the reasons you mention.

Oh, man, I loved that script! Next best thing to actually playing Imperialism 2!

-Tom

I was having a really good time with this game until the end-game hit. The problems that stopped me from playing at launch still seem present, though the religion spam isn’t nearly as bad as it was then. The biggest problems are two fold.

1 - The AI, which was keeping up pretty well in the early game, fell behind in every category to me and I’m not doing much more than “guessing” every time I build something in a city. I have no real plan, I just go “well, maybe a … theater district then?” and plop one down. Still winning handily in every category except religion (which I initially ignored and as such never got to found one) though.

2 - This is related to one but is also my biggest pet peeve with games like this, but this is extra egregious. Diplomacy. My level of immersion and fun is directly related to the players in the game, and it started early when I (up thread) complained that two long time friends had just decided to not be friends for no reason (hell, I’d even liberated and returned on of their cities) and now, playing as I am I find because Sumeria attacked me THREE times (and the third time I conqured him) I guess I’m a Warmonger so Persia was suddenly angry with me. Ooookay… should I just let Sumeria attack and not fight back then? WTF? That “you are a warmonger” nonesense bugged me at launch and it still drives me crazy.

But then just a little bit ago while I’m at peace with everyone (even Khan) they just declare war at me for no reason - they don’t even have an army that can come close to facing mine (see point 1, above; I have tanks and choppers and missile rockets and they have catapults and knights, for crying out loud).

Just look at these numbers, there is no good reason being presented to me the player to explain why civs I have been friends and allies with in the past would suddenly just declare war.

I don’t mind the $25 I spent on the expansion, it scratched a turn-based strategy itch and got me back into a game I generally enjoy, but this game is straight up fucking broken in my opinion, at least the deeper into a game you get.

Have had those seemingly random declarations of war against me too. It is one of the low points of the game.

That is the kind of stuff that keeps me from enjoying Civ. The AI just makes no sense on so many levels and its easy to beat once you get past the early game. That is like the only place you will lose. Once you get several cities established and defended, you have won the game. It doesn’t matter if you are still in the stone age, you have already won and its just a matter of time.

It makes matters even worse when the decisions the AI makes are incomprehensibly bad.

The AI should at least ask itself if it has the means, motive, and opportunity to wage a war.

Do I have a large enough military to conquer the opponent’s cities and adequately defend my territory?

Do I have a reason to do go to war (cut them down to size, I don’t have room to expand via settler anymore, my personality dictates it for other reasons, etc)?

Can I reach them with my military? Are they in a weakened state being in another war so now is my chance?

It’s the lack of motive that drives my crazy the most. Why would you declare war on me when there’s dozens of empty available city locations in between us and our relations are non-negative? Instead of throwing cannon fodder at my cities for my archers to level up on, they could have just been built a couple settlers, some workers, and had oodles of defenders.

These are solvable problems, its just basic weights the AI should measure.

I recommend the CQUI mod (once they’ve fixed it). It really helps to make the diplomatic relationships clearer - not that they make much sense even then.

The big takeaway I got from it is how much the warmonger penalty affects everything. Despite that they’ve already toned it down from the original vanilla release.

In particular, you get a relationship penalty with every civ you’ve met not only when you declare war, but also every single time you conquer a city. This makes it so that as soon as you start on the warpath, there’s pretty much no coming back ever. Everyone else will hate you almost no matter what you do from now on, or have done in the past.

It seems that multiplayer is by far the best way to go with this game… shame they haven’t added good multiplayer support. Check out http://www.sullla.com/Civ6/PBEM4-1.html for an AAR of a really good multiplayer game.

Yeah, that’s almost certainly true. We’ve said here and I’ve heard it elsewhere but I don’t think Firaxis has any desire/concern to make the AI “good” or engaging. It just needs to be present for most of the gamers that play Civ, I guess.

I always have so much fun in the first 2-3 hours of a new game, which is why it’s such a shame about the late (or even mid) game. I probably won’t bother finishing my Netherlands game either, between quitting in irritation/frustration last night and now Stellaris out in an hour. A shame, but like I said I don’t actually regret the $25 investment since I got about 8 hours of decent fun out of it, and hey, maybe someday they will make the AI a little more engaging and I can enjoy a full game? Anything is possible*.

*Likely with mods.