The thing which is ridiculous is this syllogism: “Because I find some claims of cultural appropriation silly, all claims of cultural appropriation are silly, if not downright nefarious.” And that’s the essence of Timex’s position, and the thinking behind his two questions.
And the counter argument was that chefs shouldn’t cook foods that aren’t from their personal culture. That’s absurd and deserves derision. I’m not usually on the Timex train, but this argument is just silly.
Even a stopped clock…
Do you think it’s racist to think that white people can’t say the N-word but that black people can?
Jesus Christ, do you read words and only understand their most extreme interpretation? If that had been what I typed, it would be pretty unreasonable! It’s so easy to disregard arguments when you just ignore them!
I will say that oftentimes, the single thing most white people can do to advance the cause of social justice is to shut up and stand aside to create room for voices of color that have not had the room to do anything for hundreds of years.
This entire back-and-forth is just a different flavor of the “can you be racist toward white people?” debate.
Look, white people have benefited off the rape and theft of cultures of color for thousands of years. That has created super lopsided dynamics. Unless those dynamics are corrected, you won’t ever have justice.
But that’s beside the point. When you say stuff like this:
You’re strawmanning pretty hard. It’s about who profits off things, not who does them. I can sing whatever songs I want, but if I record a slave song and sell it, yeah, I’d be an asshole.
Yeah, I agree. Which is why it’s pointless to do it. I don’t know why you continue to focus on it. The question isn’t “am I allowed to do this thing?” It’s “am I contributing to centuries of white supremacy by profiting (financially or socially) off this thing?”
The problem is that for many groups, society has not been free up until very recently, and to declare us a free society while those groups are still under the thumb of centuries of oppression is hilarious.
The answers to stupid questions are quite often…stupid. That’s the nature of stupid questions. I think every respondent told him why his questions were stupid. And the stupid questions aside, we are still left with this:
Yes. And, until I happen into another example of something that affects people, that’s the only issue I know regarding food; pretending to sell the real thing to the point where that’s what people demand, potentially influencing their vision of the people who created the original. Of course, someone might prefer a localized version anyway because palates are different, but they should at least know it’s different.
(And, again, the list is debatable)
It’s hard to articulate, but I do see them differently. I suspect there is no Indian-Mexican power dynamic with a history of exploitation in the same way as there is with the American-Mexican dynamic, and that’s where the difference comes from for me.
No, because they are actively insulting and harming them. A racial slur is different from cooking tacos.
Obviously, right?
You said, exactly, this:
So, as a chef, you are saying that he shouldn’t open a restaurant at all, and instead go do some other thing.
You think that it is ok to restrict the freedom of various people, to really insane degrees, dictating to them what kinda of food they can cook, what kind of clothes they can wear, what kind of music they can make… Because you think that will see create “justice”.
Nevermind that you have absolutely no idea how that causal relationship could possibly work. It’s essentially a mindless, punitive exercise, saying that all white people need to be punished and prevented from exercising really basic freedoms.
And you don’t recognize how that’s obviously super bad, and would only result in more animosity and xenophobia.
The reason I’m focusing on it is because it’s a critical flaw in your position.
You don’t want to look at it, because when you look at it, your brain can’t help but see the absurdity.
You are trying to dodge the specifics, and retreat to vagaries like “contributing to white supremacy”, because when you are forced to deal with the specifics your position becomes either nonsensical or offensive.
So far, we have basically everyone but you saying, “well sure, all THESE examples of supposed cultural appropriation are nonsense.” You are alone in apparently thinking that it actually is ok to limit what kinds of food people can cook and serve, based on… I dunno, something i guess? There are of course no sensible ways to establish such limitations… Can an american with hispanic ancestry make tacos, or do they have to be born in mexico? How pure does their Mexican blood need to be? It’s of course insane and offensive on it’s face.
But even others seen to be under the impression that while all of these examples are obviously wrong, there are somehow, somewhere, cases where it’s a real thing… What are those cases? Because the ones we hear about are always the kinds of things I’ve described here… People making food, or wearing clothes, or making music.
What are the LEGITIMATE examples? Because the ones we see on the news are the kinds we are taking about here. I’m not taking about stuff on Fox or crazy right wing outlets. I’m talking about stuff that actual advocates of this nonsensical notion actually complain about.
And the thing is, in all those cases, they aren’t pushed on any of the details like I’m pushing you. They are allowed to get away with vague suggestions that, somehow, doing these things are bad and should be criticized, even if such criticism doesn’t make sense of you think about it too hard. The criticism stands merely upon a vague similarity to some sort of other, offensive thing… A white person is benefiting from something in another culture! That’s vaguely similar to colonialism, if you squint and don’t think too hard!
And that’s all it ever is. That’s why i say it’s not a real thing. It’s entirely based upon not doing any kind of critical analysis of the position, of considering the implications, or trying to find a coherent logical framework to situate it within. When you try to do those things, it always falls apart because the implications always lead to the stuff I’ve suggested here. That’s why the arguments in support of it here don’t actually try to justify theses things… They just suggest that those criticisms don’t matter, because somewhere else there is some magical unicorn of cultural appropriation where these criticisms and implications don’t apply.
Certainly there must be, right? Because how could people be upset over crap that’s dumb and not real? But now you guys all have abundant examples of folks on the right who are now constantly upset over stuff that’s dumb and not real. The fact that people complain about something doesn’t mean those complaints are legitimate. Imagined victimhood is a for profit industry, and it does not have ideological boundaries. In the case of racism, the fact that systemic racism DOES in fact exist gives cover to these poorly founded criticisms. We know that there’s tons of racism, and certainly we don’t want to seem racist ourselves, so maybe just nod our heads to any claim and try not to think about it too hard. That’s not productive.
While there may not be much Indian-Mexican history like that that, there sure as hell is Indian Chinese history that is quite contentious.
Because while I was there the Jammu-Kashmir border situation got heated, including shots fired between scouts (no injuries, just warnings). So an actual Chinese person is not only something they would encounter in their life, but one for whom there is a history with often contentious impacts. And you can bet that a Chinese person trying to open a restaurant would face difficulties like you describe.
So it is, very much, relevant. And waving it away as only a white persons issue like you did, well, that creates a world of illogical implications.
If Gobi Manchurian is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
I haven’t seen a “sufficient” answer yet either.
Then his point is proven, and there is no such thing as cultural appropriation. Either that, or the questions themselves are insufficient to prove any such thing. I’m going with the latter.
My intent was not to wave it away but to indicate exactly what you did - that the realities are different for different sets of groups in different places, or even the same sets of groups in different places.
Here’s my contribution as someone that grew up on Korean food: I wish more white people would make kimchee. Or even just eat it. Despite the social media posts and food vlogs saying Korean fusion taco trucks are bringing kimchee to main street, most people’s reaction to my favorite food is “Yuck, that smells terrible.” Good luck getting folks to eat anything off the banchan plates if they don’t have a big wad of the mostly pedestrian bulgogi and plain rice to choke it down. Sigh. I long for white people to really adopt Korean food and appropriate it so I don’t have to be such a pariah at lunch.
Chefs like Roy Choi and David Chang are making bank off LA and NY foodies, but I’ve yet to find a Caucasian co-worker that won’t wrinkle their nose at the smell of good mung bean paste.
Last time i was working in hawaii, a local co-worker was surprised that i liked kimchee. Like, way more surprised than i would have expected.
Kimchee is awesome. It’s like spicy garlicky sauerkraut. And now, this past year, I’ve started fermenting other various foods.
The fermented daikon was the one thing that i could see the smell scaring someone…i was kind of afraid that i had screwed it up and was going to poison myself.
But once i are it and didn’t get sick, i love that stuff…i can see the smell throwing someone off though.
I am 100% down for meeting you for some kimchee and mung bean when the pandemic is over and we can have that Seattle Qt3 meetup. Because that is good stuff, and my wife doesn’t like it.
Kimchee is delicious. I second this motion.
There is a difference between someone appreciating something and appropriating it. Your requests sounds more like the former than the latter.
A lot of this food talk has been a pretty silly tangent if you ask me…
But apparently that’s what the Biden era is all about here in P&R!
No. I meant it. I do want them to appreciate it, but widespread acceptance won’t happen without some appropriation. I want people to appropriate it so it moves out of just being a foodie curiosity or a “Koreatown” staple. I want it to hit the level that tacos or pizza got to. An American staple. I don’t want my culture’s food to stay at the level that Indian/Pakistani food ended up. An “exotic” once-a-year visit or a menu that only gained acceptance in the vegan community.