Cuotl: By the Numbers (RoL)

This has taken me several hours (6) to compile this data, and to write all this up. I hope you guys find it useful, Id have to have wasted so much time. I do not find every number in the game for Cuotl, some of the obvious ones I skipped, such as some that can be found through tool tips. I also skipped some hard to get ones, like how zeal decreases sentinel build time or attrition bonuses for holy districts, for example.

Ill go through each unit, and building, and each tech, then have a list of bugs, and a subjective list of issues I think the Cuotl have purely from a numerical standpoint (opposed to a very subjective issue that starbolt is to weak).

For Units, the format is:
Unit Name: Base Cost (Tim / Energy / Population) + Addition Per unit of that type. Note that energy costs never increase, all costs ramp up in Tim only.
HP / Basic Attack / Air Attack / Siege Attack / Range / Transport Capacity
Upgrade 1: Which will only list things in change, in / order, which is normally the fist 4 stats.
Upgrade 2: Same thing

Not all units have upgrades, and not all of them have two upgrades. If a row is missing, it means there is no upgrade.

Sentinels: 35 / 10 / 3 +3
140 / 7/ 0 / 2.4 / 12
170 / 10.06 / 10.06 / 3.62
202 / 12.86 / 12.86 / 7.29

Sun Jags: 15 / 65 / 4 +5
265 / 11.06 / 9.04 / 5.54
330 / 14.64 / 11.08 / 7.58

Death Snake: 100 / 50 / 5 +3
450 / 15 / 0 / 8 / 0
575 / 20.1 / 0 / 14.12

Scout: 0 / 40 / 1 +20
250 / 0 / 0 / 0
300 / 0 / 0 / 0

Quetzel Fighter: 40 / 35 / 2 +15
195 / 5/ 10 / 2.4 / 13
265 / 8 / 13 / 2.4
330 / 11 / 16 / 2.4

Storm Disk: 50 / 300 / 7 +25
750 / 10 / 24 / 6 / 8
1000 / 15 / 30 / 10

Eagle Bomber: 150 / 200 / 2 +15
300 / 9 / 6 / 17 / 10

Sun Cannon: 50 / 80 / 3 +50
250 / 4 / 4 / 35 / 18 : 20 (Ground/Air / Siege ranges)
375 / 6.04 / 6.04 / 42.14

Sun Idol: 100 / 300 / 7 +20
800 / 14 / 14 / 16 / 20
1000 / 20.12 / 20.12 / 25.18

Death Sphere: 600 / 0 / 10 / +50
1600 / 31 / 0 / 25 / 2

City Of Vengeance: 700 / 1500 / 20 Unique (Can only make one)
2600 / 45 / 45 / 30 / 16 / 25 (in case you forgot, the last number is carrying capacity)
3000 / 59.28 / 59.28 / 40.2 / 16 / 40

Holy Ark: 190 / 190 / 2 +50 (Normally free with temples)
100 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0

Buildings, non city districts:
Name: Base Cost (Tim / Energy / Population) + Addition Per unit of that type
HP / Shields / Damage / Range / Transport Cap if applicable

Mine: 50 / 0 / 0 +25
800 / 0 / 0 / 0

Obelisk: 75 / 25 / 0 +50
250 / 175 / 9 : 2 Siege / 16 (not sure why structures have siege damage, but they do)

Fayne: 85 / 15 / 0 +50
150 / 75 / 0 / 0 / 1

Temple: 100 / 20 / 0 +75
200 / 100 / 0 / 0

Sanctuary: 200 / 25 / 0 / +175
750 / 300 / 15 : 10 Siege / 16

Ok that’s it for the units (I consider place able buildings as units that can’t move). There isn’t much discussion here unless you have numbers to compare them against. I have not done this for Alin or Vinci with one exception, the Infantry. To really find interesting stuff, ill have to wait until I get numbers for everything else.

Infantry Comparison:

Sentinels: 35 / 10 / 3 +3
140 / 7/ 0 / 2.4 / 12
170 / 10.06 / 10.06 / 3.62
202 / 12.86 / 12.86 / 7.29

Musketers: 35 / 0 (gold) / 2 +3
130 / 6 / 6 / 2.4 / 12
158 / 9 / 9 / 3.6
185 / 12 / 12 / 7.2

Sand Walkers: 25 / 0 / 1 +3
113 / 6 / 6 / 2.4 / 8 Range Damage is only counted if you buy the upgrade.
129 / 8.05 / 8.05 / 2.3
151 / 11.72 / 11.72 / 3.37

Sand Walkers were a bit whacky to figure out; there is no strait upgrade path like there is for Vinci or Cuotl. I picked all the upgrades that counted for all units or sand units. One for each tier. Their numbers might not quite be right because of this.

For simplicity, Ill only compare the fully upgraded infantry, although most of this does apply to all even tiers to a lesser degree.

Looking at the last line of each, the Vinci units have 17 less hp, 0.86 less damage, 0.09 less siege damage then Cuotl. They cost a base of 10 less resources and 1 less pop.

Subjectively: To me, it seems the Cuotl do not warrant their +3 pop cost the above differences are so small, its not worth a 50% cost increase in population cost.

Looking at the Alin units have 51 less hp, 0.28 less damage, 3.92 less siege damage, 4 less range. They cost almost half of the Cuotl unts, and 200% less pop cap.

Subjectively: This is a hard call. My gut feeling is that the Alin infantry is a good buy, they are cheap and effective support troop. For resources spent, they are significantly better then the Cuotl units. Compared to Vinci infantry, they are about even in resource value, but a much better buy in pop cost.

(cont)

Onto the big 4 techs, which are the primary reason I did this research.

Tech Name:
Improvement 1: Level 0 / Level 1 / Level 2 / Level 3 / Level 4 / Level 5
Discussion 1: (if I have one)
Improvement 2: Level 0 / Level 1 / Level 2 / Level 3 / Level 4 / Level 5
Discussion 2:
Etc…

All improvements are Totals: So if you see something like 1 / 1 / 1 that means that there is no change for improving the tech. Most improvements are in percentages, so 1.2 means 1.2% or 0.012

Worship:
Empower Mine Boost %: 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 or +1 per miner, I do not know which.
Yes, despite the tool tip saying that empower improves with each level, it does not for mines. And yes, its only 5 % production increase. This was done with a mine of 8 miners at +20 production. It went from 160 to 168. Empower mine might not be percentage based, it may simply be a flat +1 per miner.

Bonus Fayne Cap : 0 / 1 / 7/ 14/ 29
This is the extra carrying capacity for Faynes.

Ark Health Bonus: 0 / 25 / 75 / 175 / 300
This is how many more HP the arc gets. IE: The final level total for an ark is 400 hp.

Ark Heal: 0 / .33 / .66 / 1.0 / 2.0 (In healing per second)
Arks do not stack heals, so two arks will not heal your troops 2x much as one. They do stack with natural healing though from temples.

Empower Production Speed Boost%: 0 / 20 / 35 / 50/ 65
There is a tool tip error that suggests that empowering structures improves production speeds. This is only true with worship upgrades. Empowering without them does nothing.

Empower Obelisk Attack Boost %: 5 / 15 / 30 / 50 / 60
There is some documentation (a tip I think) that says arks will improve fortress attacks. This is absolutely not true. They do nothing for their damager at any level. ONLY obelisks get any benefits from this.

Arks and Worship:
Without worship increase, the only two thinks an ark is good for is boosting miners by +1 and countering attrition. They have no other affect on anything aside from that. Also arks never do anything for neutral structures, even neutral mines will get no bonus from being empowered, even though it will let you empower them.

Zeal:
Damage Boost %: 0 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 20
Free Infantry: 0 / 1 / 2/ 4 / 8

Judgment:
Bonus Tim: 0 / 0 / 50 / 100 / 300
Bonus Tim Prod: 0 / 10 / 20 / 30 / 40
Subjugation Discount %: 0 / 5 / 11 / 17 / 33

Ill pause here for a comment. This is in the ‘personal opinion’ area. Subjugation is a really awful power compared to the other factions. On paper it ‘seems’ cool, but it really is not. Here is why. The cost for buying a building with gold (Vinci / Alin) or Tim (Cuotl) is exactly the same. Only for each merchant trip you get a discount which very quickly exceeds these discounts. Secondly, when you buy a city/site nothing is damaged. You get all the units at full health. You can only do this after spending 14 points in Judgment. Also, you can get things for free with trade, so even those out of the way places you may not bother with can suddenly turn and you get them and their units for free. I think BGH needs to look at this very carefully and very much retune this power. Also as the game goes on, there is less and less to subjugate, so while your discount grows, its less applicable. I think a reasonable, linear discount is in order. Maybe 15% per level. Also at some tech level (less then 4) everything should be unharmed.

Personal Shield Power: 0 / 20 / 40 / 60 / 80

Divine Power:
Bonus Energy: 0 / 0 / 50 / 200 / 400
Bonus Energy Prod: 0 / 10 / 20 / 30 / 40
Starbolt Siege Dps: 0 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10

Despite what the tool tip tells you, Divine power does not increase star bolt damage at all. It says, Area, Duration, and Damage are increased. The first two are, the last one is not. Either the tool tip needs to changed, or the star bolt really does need to get a DPS boost.
City Districts: This is somewhat incomplete, but here is what I could glean:

Temple District:
Each adds Healing of .25dps to your territory.
Unable to determine how much attrition each adds.
Adds 100 hp to city

Reactor:
Each NEURTAL non-city site adds +1 power. The tool tip says any non-city district, which would imply faynes, mines, etc… This is wrong. Only capture able, neutral sites add this bonus. This tool tip needs to be clarified or the bug fixed so that it actually does what the tool tip says it does.

There is no other benefit for reactors. They add no HP or any other effect to your city.

Military:
+15 Pop cap
+7dps (caps at 73dps)
Adds 500hp to city

Military districts get a huge boost for each capitol district. I made a city of all military districts and two capitol districts. The city ended up with 18,000 + hp and 73 dps (which was capped after the first capitol district). I would guess at 4 or more military districts, your city becomes slightly tuffer to deal with, although a huge army will still have no troubles, a small force might be repelled.

A city with no military districts does a base of 1 dps.

Capitol Districts:
To many changes here, other then telling you that it boosts everything. I have no numbers for you.

Hero Perks:
Sun God: +5% HP / DPS per level for Sun units.
Death God: +5% HP / DPS per level for Death units
Storm God: No side effect benfits. IMHO, a crap hero. When her powers are on cool down, she has little value.

(cont)

Bug List Summary:

Mine Upgrade: Tool tip says additional +10 per miner, but the result is really +5. The Vinci mine says the same thing. The tool tip or effect should be fixed.

Ark Empowering 1: Neutral structures get no benefit. This should be fixed, or the tool tip be clarified and do not allow players to empower things that get no benefit.

Ark Empowering 2: There are no multiple effects from empowering. The tips (not tool tips) say unit building, attack power, and mining are increased. A mine does not make miners any faster, a fort does not get an attack power buff. This should be clarified or fixed.

Ark Empowering 3: If ark empowering does not provide a benefit, it should not let you empower something. This means at level 0 worship, you can’t empower forts or obelisks, or any unit producing structure (aside from mines).

Worship:
Mines get zero benefit from this tech. This should be fixed, or changed in the tool tip.

Divine Power: Star bolt gets no boost in DPS. The tool tip should be fixed OR starbolt, should indeed get a boost in DPS.

Reactor Districts: They say they get a boost from every non-city structure. They only get them from neutral sites. The tool tip or the actual effects need to be fixed.

Subjective Observations / gripes / suggestions:

Cuotl Infantry 1: The pop cost is unwarranted at 3. It should be 2, or you need to really boost them to make them a 3 pop cost unit. See the Vinci / Alin / Cuotl comparison.

Subjugation: Since cuotl have no money or merchants, it is the way they ‘buy’ cites. Considering the negative effects of this (no cumulative discounts, damaged or lost units, damaged cities, and the fact they can’t just get stuff for free), I think this needs to be reworked considerably. Because of the damaged units (and out right lost units at low levels) I think there should be a significant base discount (gold vs tim) for using it. Further more, due to the nature of how the games play out, the discount should be linear because this power is more needed earlier opposed to later.

Energy Mines: These are a bad buy. Any benefits of this are exceeded by one reactor district, which is easily paid for by the Tim upgrade. The boost should be more palatable and make the choice of choosing between tim or energy much more difficult.

Death Sphere: Because of the low healing power of the Cuotl, damaged spheres take forever to heal. Id rather see much lower HP with a high flat out damage resistance to bring them up to the same relative tuffness they are now, but heal faster when not in use.

Death gods Death sphere power: It is hard to select this thing after he summons it. Even lassoing is a big problem. Because of its short life and slow speed, I would like to have it automatically become selected as soon as it is summoned. Maybe this can be an option somewhere. This might also be used for starbolt.

Structures vs the horde: I have said a few times I think cities and buildings fall too fast (compared to RoN). I do not know how normal damage vs siege damage works. I would simply like to see buildings, in general not so easy to annihilate. Maybe making them subject ONLY to siege damage might be enough, or maybe removing siege damage form every unit, so only special units have it might work.

Personal Shields 1: Hardly anyone admits to using these regularly. I have tried and given up for the most part. The micro management of these needs to be addressed. Maybe a hot key that activates all shields for any group selection, even with units that doe not have shields, will be ok. Maybe auto-self cast when a unit starts taking damage would work too.

Personal Shields 2: These do not scale with the unit. All other abilities scale. I think the personal shields, rather then being a fixed number, should be based on the units HP. A sun idol with 1000hp gets less relative benefit then infantry with 200hp. It is a relative 8% : 40% boost ratio.

Personal Shields 3: The duration is far too short. It should last for one battle (maybe a minute or two) opposed to a few seconds.

Invisibility 1: 10 seconds of invisibility is not much use to anyone. It should be in the minutes, that way you can sneak an army across the map.

Invisibility 2: All units should have this, even heroes, and faynes (in transport mode only perhaps). Provided you address the previous issue, I do not want to sneak an army across the map when I have to leave my most powerful units behind.

Starbolt: (you knew it had to be in here Tom): Maybe in relation to the damage output to industrial dev its ok, but industrial dev also stuns the units for a good while too. Maybe if the upgrade for divine power is fixed, this will not be an issue. However, as it stands now, I think it is too weak. At 10 dps, if it lasts 10 seconds, that is 100hp of damage. For a power use late in the game, I think this is kind of weak. It also is supposed to do heavy damage to structures (read the tool tip), this is worthless against structures, as in 100hp is nothing. Maybe its damage is called differently against structures due to how siege vs regular damage is calculated. Since I do not know that formula, I can only guess.

  1. Holy shit.

  2. I have nothing to say about the numbers, but regarding starbolt, remember that it also forces units to scatter. When you use it on an enemy army and they all get out of the way, that’s completely automatic, it’s not the other player moving them. It’s different than a stun but it’s also useful.

Well that settles it. I’m playing hardcore Coutl. I DEFY YOU.

I’m gonna take a moment to thank Deep T for this. All this information is really interesting and relevant. Thanks for taking the time to take the Couatl apart!

Thanks DeepT for that … deeply… informative post! :)

I have a few comments though. I haven’t really ever felt the Cuotl to be weak. They have a great early scout and the stupid power of the Sun Idol to bash their way in the late game. Personally i feel that Sun Jags and Death Snakes are rather weak per cost and become hard to justify once the Sun Idols emerge.

Energy vs. Wealth generation. The Cuotl as you know generate wealth without any caravans. How much of a cost savings this is i don’t really know off the top of my head - but since Cuotl buildings don’t seem any more expensive then other factions’ it would appear that here the Cuotl get something of a production “advantage”. I might be wrong - do caravans produce 20 gold or 10?

Also, the Cuotl get something of a research advantage - at least in the early game. Research points for improving your city, basically for free. This also gives them a bit of a cost savings vs. the other races that have to buy points outright. In the late game, when you’ve run out of cities, this kind of limits the Cuotl research though - i’ve never reached the 4th level of any tech except in single player, and only when i’m screwing around.

Personal shields are nice because they prevent fragmentation. I.E., when i use shields on an Sentinel under attack by a Musketeer, i’m not only absorbing damage but also for a brief time not sustaining any casualties. It’s easy to get the 40hp shield, which gives my infantry an effective 180 hp - a considerable early game advantage. As the game rolls on it becomes harder and harder to use these shields effectively, especially when you’re managing your Sun Idols more then the trash troops beneath them. I’d like to see an “autocast” option for the shields. Also, i’d wish they’d have a faster regen with greater tech levels.

The Invisibility is not meant to hide an army but save expensive units from death. Invis them and pull them out of the combat area to heal. 25 energy is cheap compared to 300 for a Sun Idol about to die. OTOH, it takes so long to heal them saving them for later isn’t exactly a short term procedure.

My biggest complaint about the Cuotl in general is the relative expense of their heroes. Cuotl heroes have to spend energy in order to USE their special abilites; whereas other heroes merely have to buy the upgrade once. Combined with the high energy cost of these spells (75, 175, 500, ect) vs. their questionable cost effectiveness, and Cuotl have a very very hard time leveling heros and using their specials. When every drop of energy is needed to make more Sun Idols and Sun Cannon, or saving energy for the City of Doom, dropping 175 for the pillars of flame is a very hard sell. I like Czin better then Xil but Xil is much easier to keep alive. Czin is best for killing the enemy heroes with his stun spell. The flying hero i’ve never used.

The other point you raised, that of Subjugation, is well taken. Subjegation sucks - except for one thing. It uses Timonium instead of Energy/Gold; i suppose in certain situations this makes it cheaper. However since the other races get a cost discount on the buying price with every caravan trip Subjugation is clearly the weakest of the skills. It seems like it was meant to be used to capture player controlled enemy cities, but the feature was taken out some time shortly before the game shipped, leaving only neutral cities as it’s target. The subjugation tech needs to be WAY more effective.

I’m confused by your percentages. From 160 to 168 is a 5% increase, not 1.05%. So when you say zeal increases damage by 1.2%, do you actually mean 20% (i.e. multiplied by 1.2)?

1.2 is 1.2%

So an attack of 100 becomes 101.2.

168 /160 = 1.05% increase, not 5%

I thought about subjegation capturing enemy cities, but I do not think it would be a fair power any way you slice it. Just save up 2k, thanks for your capitol… That would a total BS move.

Carvans start off at 25 gold production. They go up with buffs. Basically it is equivlent to reactor output. However, they are subject to being killed. I have never seen that as a problem though. It does happen on occasion, but I have not seen anyone doing caravan hunting. I am sure the cutol could pull it off with some saucer (storm disk) attacks, although with Land Lore, I think the Alin would be a master of this with a flying anti air unit (do they have them?)

Also I would not want to imply they are weak. They have weaknesses, and maybe are not quite as strong as they should be, but they are not weak.

There is another comment I would like to make on the infantry comparison. I just measued basic unit upgrades. There were no tech upgrades added in. However, for the Alin it is all tech upgrades beause there are no unit upgrades like that for them.

If I am not mistaken, there are Vinci tech upgrades that do things like increase ranged attack by 10% or 15% as well as HP the same way. If you factor in all that, even adding all the tech upgrades for Cuotl (which is basically zeal), then the Vinci have the best infantry around. They will cost less then Cuotl, take less pop then Cuotl, and out damage as well has have more health then the Cuotl. Overall I would see this as unbalanced since you have a superior unit at a superior cost.

Your notation is incorrect. Most math folks would say the increase is (168-160)/160 = .05, which translates into 5% over the base amount.

As another example, say the price of a gallon of gas goes from $1.50 to $3. It is incorrect to say this is 3/1.5 = 2% increase. Rather, it is (3-1.5)/1.5 = 1, which translates into a 100% increase over the base.

The increase from 160 is 8.

8 is five percent of 160. So the increase is five percent.

Troy

Doh! Yea, I screwed that up. Your right, it is 5%. So much for doing math at 2am. I probably made the same mistake with zeal although I did it a differant way then that. I was working with a lot of very small fractions and there were some abberations I had to get rid of (some bonus showed up on some units and I had no idea where it came from)

Ok, just re-ran the numbers for Zeal. I did make the same mistake, sorry about that.

Ill fix it.

Great job Deep on the info. It really sucks that the bonuses they talked about either are low or aren’t really working. Is it just me or is the Xil the only hero worth getting in the beginning due to the defense ability and sun flare power? Also does anyone have the numbers of what is more effective? Xils’ level 4 power ( damage bonus I think 45 damage point to it) or the death gods’ doom ball?

Also the shield needs to be made a bit stronger, or maybe scale it’s strength depending on the unit. Such as a sun idol shield will be much stronger at the same level then a sun jaguar’s shield. Oh and I agree completely about the death ball being hard to control, by the time I click on it it’s already about to go.

I do not know which hero is better between the sun god and death god. The sun god is more suvivable because he doesn’t have to wade in to enemies, where the death god does.

The sun god is also easier to level because none of his powers require enemies, where as 2 of the 4 death god (the lower ones) do.

However, at level 4, which has the most uber power? Definitly the death sphere. It has a horrendus cool down, doesnt last long, and a huge cost. But as far as level 4 sphere, I have not seen anything it sucks up ever survive.

Can anyone confirm/deny whether the Cuotl Obelisks are working as intended (or at least working as the tooltip indicates)? Tooltip says the more of these you build near each other, the stronger each one will be. I built 4 next to each other and did not notice any increase in either damage or hps.

edit: Nevermind, I’m going to assume I’m wrong based on responses in the other thread. I only played Cuotl for the first time today.