I know it shouldn’t by now, but my mind boggles when I read or hear the meme that the White House/Senate is being uncooperative or is part of this problem.
The House has turned what should be a simple housekeeping measure into a direct threat to the US economy during a brutal recession. The debt ceiling has nothing to do with the long-term deficit and everything to do with paying the debts Congress has incurred.
The medium and long term problems from the growing deficit should be discussed, debated and addressed, but I’d like to see it happen in a way and at a time that doesn’t derail our economy.
I know that’s been stated many times during this thread, but I’m so puzzled by the rhetoric that I thought I should bring it up again.
Friendly? Ya sure.
As for why people have decided to not take me seriously here, it is their problem, not mine. I know the reasons for it, I am not a liberal who believes in bigger government and bigger spending. That is all there is to it.
This board has the problem of most internet boards, its not what is said that is important, it is who says it.
They don’t take you seriously because you’re like the snot-nosed six-year-old kid who keeps walking up to the high stakes poker table and demanding to play because there was that one time he won a game of war against his sister and he obviously knows everything there is to know about cards, so there! <cue raspberry>
This board has the problem of most internet boards, its not what is said that is important, it is who says it.
It has the problem of most Internet boards in that the people who are most critical of it and its members never ever go away. Apparently because they falsely equate self-martyrdom with validation.
There was an intervening event there, Brett. The Gang of Six came out with their proposal after Boehner and Obama had come to something like an agreement. The Gang of Six proposed more revenue than Obama/Boehner had originally discussed and Obama added in more revenue as an attempt to make the compromise not seem way more conservative than the Gang of Six’s plan.
Obviously the Democrats. Doesn’t matter which side is conceding or demanding either.
And your evidence that she’s wrong is… the fact that you don’t like what she’s saying? The fact that it’s Pelosi?
Also, the link seems to be broken.
Also, “both sides are unco-operative” is a nonsense equivocation. If we’re trying to row a boat, and you start bailing water into the boat to try to sink it, and I start bailing it out to try to stop you from doing that, it’s technically true that both of us are failing to co-operate. One could say it’s up to either of us to change what we’re doing and co-operate with the other, and then we’d both be co-operating. But it’s not reasonable to demand of those who are trying to prevent the destruction of the economy that they co-operate with those are trying to cause it. The opposite demand, however, is perfectly reasonable.
Well, every problem has two sides and no doubt the Democrats and Obama could have handled the situation a little better. But it’s weird to lay blame at their door, when (part of) one side of the argument is clearly insane and seemingly intent on scoring the worst own-goal in the history of a democratic state. Kind of “peace in our time” levels of political delusion.
That’s funny, since Obama backed off specifically because the Congressional Republicans indicated that they felt they would have an easier time hashing out a deal among the Congressional leadership.
Re: whether or not the Democrats are as much at fault for not caving to all of the Republicans’ demands: they actually did cave to pretty much all the Republicans’ demands, on multiple occasions over the past few months. Every time they did so, the Republicans came back with more demands. NPR did a good bit on how far the goalposts have moved, but I think the fact that the GOP is now saying that any bill without a fucking Constitutional amendment is a nonstarter is as good a watermark as any.
In any event, as pointed out before, the Republicans are the ones holding the gun. They alone have the power to end this manufactured crisis. It sort of reminds me of that Start Trek TNG episode where Data is captured by the guy who collects rare artifacts, and the collector tells Data that he will start hurting people if Data doesn’t cooperate, and any injury that they suffer as a result of Data’s noncompliance will be on Data’s shoulders.
I looked it up and the quickest a constitutional amendment has ever been approved was 4 months. Most take slightly over a year. There is no way that process can happen in 3 days. So at this point, Congress is going to cause an economic disaster for the US no matter what.
Is there any hope at this point?
The coin seignorage thing or the 14th Amendment option. Or just print money. None of them are great options, but letting the GOP tank the American (and world) economy because they decided to throw a tantrum is a much worse option.
ShivaX
1633
I’d like to see the 14th Amendment trump this just so we NEVER have to deal with it again, ever.
Plus its pretty much exactly what the 14th Amendment seems to say you can’t do.
It’s vague language (“Shall not be questioned”), it was there for a specific reason (confederates potentially repudiating civil war debts), and it says what the Congress is doing is unconstitutional by omission, not that the President has positive legal authority to act as a temporary Congress of one to overturn a federal law.
He should still do it.
ShivaX
1635
Well if Congress is doing something unconstitutional, he can ignore it and execute his duties.
The debt ceiling is still the law and the responsibility of Congress; in applying the 14th Amendment argument he’d be fighting constitutional impropriety with constitutional impropriety.
These are the sorts of things that the “saner” Republicans and David Broders of the world will be pointing to when they go along with impeachment proceedings.
ShivaX
1637
Well then have Reid do it.
Have him walk out and say “this is unConstitutional and should be ignored.”
Next time hes up for election the GOP probably wont run a wingnut so this is his last term anyway.
mixuk
1638
As an outsider, I have a bit of a stupid question: I’ve been wondering now for a while who these “Tee Party Politicians” are who have so much power. In the net, I can only see a few names which are: Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, Ron Paul and Jim DeMint. And two of those are outside commentators. The top spokesman for them appears to be “no one”.
How do they communicate with the house or the congress? Does all the talk go through Bachmann, or how does this actually work?
JeffL
1639
Yeah, just to be clear, while I think the Democrats and Obama have mishandled this whole thing, there is no doubt that this is clearly now a GOP manufactured FUBAR. Reid’s proposal looks like the GOP proposal except it doesn’t make this all come back up again in 6 months. The GOP could simply accept Reid’s proposal (assume the Democrats would pass it) and it would be a HUGE victory for the GOP. They get the spending cuts with no tax increases. They get Boehner’s bill, minus the 6 month timing and the looney amend the constitution requirement. If you had given the GOP that option 6 months ago, they would have gobbled it up and laughed, and everyone would be talking about why Reid is suddenly acting like a Republican. Yet now even THAT is unacceptable to the GOP.
I think if I was in my 20s instead of my 50s I would just hope everything goes to hell, in a really bad way, and the Tea Party gets the fallout to the point the GOP tells them they never get this kind of power again. I know the guys from Florida are already getting hell from their constituents (older, SS, etc.)
ShivaX
1640
Maybe this will be the death blow for the modern Republican party, since apparently everything under Bush wasn’t.
Then we can get rational conservatives and have a working government again.
