We don’t know for sure. We do know that, in the New Testament, Jesus commanded us to help the sick, the poor, and the destitute, and that by giving comfort to the least among us, we are giving comfort to him. So, I guess it is just all ineffable.
There’s a take that a lot of American religious engagement in the US, particularly on the right, is more social/status based than belief based. Being outwardly seen to be “a good Christian” is very important in some circles and actual conscientious belief is secondary.
TLDR version: many people including me (and probably Tom) see American Conservative Christianity as “performative” as opposed to deeply sincere.
And some of us see it as very sincerely reflective of Christianity
I would agree, they would not.
But in any case the ‘Christian’ Right is certainly more political ideological than religious theological at this point. Their belief and behavior is one where political ideology and associations have supplanted sincere religious belief. They just don’t recognize it as such. There is a while industry of people who repackage and smuggle political ideology under guise of religious doctrine through manipulated and deceptive use of religious texts. And sometimes straight plain readings, to be fair. It is a religious theology where the end goal is already determined, and religious study is devoted to finding justifications.
Uncomfortable and I’ll fitting passages are excused and ignored. It’s why I made the comment about Paul’s formulation on what sin was, not tying it to specific application of religious law. Rather grounding it in consideration and compassion for others. Today behaving in such a manner is ‘cancel culture’ and ‘the woke mob’, not empathy and understanding for others.
That sounds like a cue.
I’d argue that both of these questions are answered by Jesus when he told us that the greatest commandments are “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” So the Old Testament bits that line up with that are still useful, the others are important history but not guidelines for living. And we should indeed help those in need in this life as part of loving your neighbor. However…
Yeah, that happens a lot. Sometimes bits of the New Testament get used, too. Almost always they violate the “love your neighbor” commandment because someone thinks that the “Love the Lord” commandment means Christians are supposed to punish non-Christians who do things that we interpret as sin. Whether those things actually are sin or not is immaterial, it’s not our place to judge or punish outside of direct, clear harming of another person. This is a remarkably difficult concept for many Christians to grasp.
Are you sure they are failing to grasp it and not simply disagreeing?
I think this is true - there was a decent film i watched recently in French about a Catholic boys’ rehab retreat / camp somewhere in the southern Alps that seems to follow a long tradition about the uneasy skepticism about the role of religion in society. There is a genuine miracle but it has a secular ending, which seems to be the French conclusion about God and Established Religion. What it’s called though i can’t recall and Googling “French movie about boys rehab mountain retreat” doesn’t go anywhere (I saw it on Mubi a year or two ago).
One thing i’ve gotten over is trying to to tell religious people what their religion is. Whether intellectual Catholicism or rabid non-denominational Protestantism is the “real” Christianity isn’t for me to say. Like in Mark Jesus tells his followers over and over again not to tell anyone about him - so, what does that mean now? The Sermon on the Mount tells Jesus’ followers to hide themselves in their rooms when they pray, to hide when you are fasting, to not lay up treasures, and later he tells his followers that he comes not to send peace on earth but a sword, to set father against son and daughter against mother. Squaring all of these is… to be honest, probably beyond the traditions of almost all Christian history. But… it’s certainly not my place to go around telling people they’re doing things right or wrong.
Fair question. I think if you claim to be a follower of Christ and yet ignore the multitude of teachings that contradict punitive action against others - “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, “love your neighbor”, “let your light shine before others”, he was “a friend of tax collectors and sinners” - then you’re willfully misinterpreting, not simply disagreeing.
Because Christ told us how we are supposed to live. He told us what His Father wished of us.
The reason to live according to the teachings of christ is not transactional. You aren’t supposed to do it in order to get paid.
You are doing it because you love God, and are trying your best to do what is right.
A big part of this making sense, is that you need to actually believe in the existence of God. If you understand that it hinges upon faith in God, then it’s much easier to understand why you would do as he asks… Not just because you want to be rewarded, but because God is, by definition, a wholely omniscient, benevolent entity.
I would argue that “religious engagement” isn’t the same as religion. Again, watch Corpus Christi, Cavalry, and Leviathan. The average American would be pretty nonplussed at those movies, and not just because of the subtitles or funny accents.
They do teach a lot of theology! My background, however, was Biblical studies. If theology is discussing who would win in a fight between Batman and Superman, Biblical studies is poring over issue #47 of Superman Season Six to see what we can infer about the artists, the writers, the characters, the tension between the citizens of Metropolis and Gotham, and our own lives. If we also find out who would win in a fight between Superman and Batman, well, that’s just gravy.
-Tom
And yet one could easily point to all the parts of the OT that are punitive in tone, the history of church sanctioned (or sponsored) punitive actions, etc. One could make a very credible argument that aggressive, controlling, or punitive christians are acting well in line with the traditions of their faith.
I point this out not to defend those people, but merely to illustrate that christians and their bible are trash.
Just wanted to say, I adore this comparison.
Why did Jesus cry out to his Father on the cross if it was preordained and He was God in the flesh?
And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me ?” This is the only saying which appears in more than one Gospel, and is a quote from Psalm 22:1 (or probably Psalm 42:9).
Right, but I’d argue those folks aren’t Christians in the sense of being followers of Christ, because they’re not allowing his New Testament teachings to supercede the Old Testament. I realize a lot of this doesn’t really matter, because people think of such folks as Christians, but they’re really not.
And this sort of reaction is why it’s really bad that so-called Christians don’t actually follow the teachings.
A sign of your election if you do!
And I’d argue that anytime a person has to start making the "Well they aren’t really part of my group even though they say they are . . . " argument that it’s a big red flag. Maybe it’s time for anyone making that argument to take a long look around and figure out if they really want to keep associating with that group.
Here’s the problem with the “so-called Christians” argument, I’m sure the ones you are pooh-poohing would say the same about those doing the pooh-poohing. Okay, that wasn’t a strong point, but I really wanted an excuse to work pooh-poohing into a sentence.
I think the thing to remember is that practicing Christianity is hard. Its an ideal that many fail at. Some do so spectacular, and delude themselves into thinking otherwise.
Anyone can call themselves a Christian, just like anyone can call themselves a gamer, or anyone can call themselves an athlete or Social Media Influencer. We all have our own yardsticks to determine whether someone fits into those categories.
For Christianity, I judge them by how much they try to keep to the teaching of Christianity. I know all of us will failure, because those teachings are rough. Loving everyone, including people like Trump and Limbaugh, that is really hard. Not judging people, also rough.
But, trying, even when you fail, that is important.
I just don’t see members of the Christian Right as people that even try.
So, I don’t really think of them as Christians. They don’t seem to have all that much in common with the teachings of Christ.
I refuse to not call myself a Christian because those people exist. After all, why should I change, their the ones that suck.
I think it’s unfortunate that we as Christians don’t do a better job of representing the faith such that the bad actors can be more clearly identified as acting in an un-Christian manner. We’re none of us perfect. Having said that, I think jumping to " that christians and their bible are trash" is quite a leap.
This sort of hand-wavey nonsense won’t cut it. Words have meanings, trying to redefine them to draw a distinction that excuses all the evils done by christians is pure semantic wankery. I absolutely respect your right to define your beliefs and your own morals however you want, but you don’t get to stake your own claim to your own morals as a defense of christianity in general and thus absolve christianity of all the horrible acts done daily in the name of that recognized faith.
So, you going throw Martin Luther King Jr in with Jerry Falwell?
How about Donald Trump and Joe Biden?
Through out history, a lot of White People are racist, so I guess we should all wear that titles with pride?
Honestly, how wide do you want to paint with that brush of yours?