DX1 flaws! My favorite topic.
-Performance. Ridiculously bad. (DX2: CHECK!)
-Poor voice acting. (DX2: CHECK!)
-Miserably bad AI. (DX2: CHECK!)
-Poorly implemented stealth. (DX2: CHECK!)
-Crappy combat. (DX2: CHECK!)
-crappy Liberty Island level (DX2: CHECK!)
Playing devil’s avocado for a minute, a lot of people criticised the NPC combat AI; the way game dragged a bit after Paris; the hardcoded plot that forced you to join factions you (the player) may not have wanted to.
Another common complaint was the forced capture part.
Not really. I’ve played DX through multiple times, including just before DX2 was released. It’s a bit patronising to assume that the opinions of people who disagree with you are faulty, especially with a game that has as many hardcore fans as this series does.[/quote]
Wether DX “rose above its flaws” is a matter of opinion. I liked it but it was far from a polished game. I still stick with the “rose colored glasses” statement through. All I saw with DX:IW was people just slamming the game before it was even released. Many had already made up their minds before they even got the game. I sometimes wonder how many of them even played the full game.
Either way this would go on forever. That group of “hardcore” DX fans will hate IW forever.
Wether DX “rose above its flaws” is a matter of opinion. I liked it but it was far from a polished game. I still stick with the “rose colored glasses” statement through. All I saw with DX:IW was people just slamming the game before it was even released. Many had already made up their minds before they even got the game. I sometimes wonder how many of them even played the full game.
Ground I’ve covered before. DX was a classic. A flawed classic, but a classic. The people who slam it tend to forget that it was released several years ago, not yesterday; i.e. “it had bad A.I.” – well, cowboy, about the only shooter that had GOOD A.I. when DX was released was “Half-Life”, etc. etc. etc. So those rose-colored pieces of hardware are equally matched by the ones that provide 20/20 hindsight. (And as for the “miserable performance” … sorry, until about 2001 all I had were 3dfx cards, so I couldn’t complain.)
DX2 was just miserable. I was enthusiastic about it, at first, but the more I look back on the game, the more miserable I realize it was. It was obviously the poor sister of Thief 3’s development, obviously cranked out by the B-team.
–scharmers
Many made up their minds about the demo after playing it. Even if they did let it color their perceptions of the full game, it doesn’t matter as much because everything that’s wrong with the demo is wrong with the full game. The interface, load times, framerate, universal ammo, and small levels were exactly as disappointing in the demo as they were in the full game. Only major difference is that the full game has more tiny maps for things to not matter in, allowing more time for the obnoxiousness of the factions to really sink in.
DX1 runs like butter on my modern system in 12x10, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. Sure, the game ran like crap if you had a mid-or-lower-range system without a Glide card, but remember, Direct3D was just getting away from being a slug back then, and Voodoo was still kicking. The game is free of any performance bugs–no memory leaks, no wasted cycles, etc–I think the performance issue, which is moot nowadays, was more a sign of the times than the sign of bad programming.
-Poor voice acting. (DX2: CHECK!)
God I get tired of this claim.
What non-adventure game has good voice acting? That’s what I thought.
Fuck, DX1’s wasn’t even that bad. Stereotypical in parts, but not “poor” by any strech of the imagination. I can rattle off a big list of games with worse voice acting than DX1, but only a short one of games better.
-Miserably bad AI. (DX2: CHECK!)
Again, a sign of the times, and thus a subjective thing. I think the AI is just fine for being mostly unscripted. Half-Life was only better because so much of it was scripted–though I will admit some of the later monsters’ AI (like the special ops assassins) really shone.
-Poorly implemented stealth. (DX2: CHECK!)
I agree with this. OTOH, name a game that has well-implemented stealth that isn’t a stealth game. Yeah, there aren’t any.
-Crappy combat. (DX2: CHECK!)
You must not like any FPS at all, then. I found the combat just dandy…
-crappy Liberty Island level (DX2: CHECK!)
It’s a great first level, even if it doesn’t make much sense. There are more secrets and rewarding explorations to be done in that level than most full retail products.
Direct3D was just getting away from being a slug back then, and Voodoo was still kicking.
I would say that D3D was just getting away from being a slug with the introduction of the TNT card which was something like summer 1998. When DX was released two years later there wasn’t much of an excuse for miserable D3D peformance- the Geforce 2 had just hit the market and 3DFx was pretty much on its way out at that point.
Games choose their tech early on so if there was a two year development cycle 3dfx was still mostly king when they started development.
– Xaroc
The problem wasn’t D3D being a hardware slug, it was the fact D3D started as a crappy API, especially when compared to the amazing Glide (though Glide was pretty bad when it came to graphical quality).
Also, DX is based on the Unreal Tournament engine, which is a reworking of the Unreal engine–a 1998 game that favored Glide in a big way (just like UT). It’s really no surprise, in retrospect, that D3D was an awful choice to run DeusEx under at the time. It’s still a shame, but hell, modern video card/processor combos flatten that speedbump quite handily, so what’s it really matter?
Come on…do you really believe this? What are the biggest problems with IW that people cite? Small levels and too much streamlining. These things were design decisions that were made early on. Ok, the problems with the physics could have been tweaked with more dev time, maybe. But otherwise the game had a pretty ‘done’ feel about it (I played the Xbox version by the way).
Bye,
Steven
[quote=“Zteven”]
Come on…do you really believe this? What are the biggest problems with IW that people cite? Small levels and too much streamlining. These things were design decisions that were made early on. Ok, the problems with the physics could have been tweaked with more dev time, maybe. But otherwise the game had a pretty ‘done’ feel about it (I played the Xbox version by the way).
Bye,
Steven[/quote]I don’t think more time could have saved the game. The design is intrinsically flawed, at least, in comparison to the first game.
Yes, because it’s obvious.
What are the biggest problems with IW that people cite? Small levels and too much streamlining. These things were design decisions that were made early on. Ok, the problems with the physics could have been tweaked with more dev time, maybe. But otherwise the game had a pretty ‘done’ feel about it (I played the Xbox version by the way).
Not on the PC it didn’t, where it had well documented problems with configuration options. There’s also the great swathes of the game that are clearly missing or glaringly truncated - Panzerwerks, for instance, which almost everybody in Trier talks about - a tried and true DX foreshadowing technique for indicating where you’ll be going next or soon. Except you don’t visit Panzerwerks, even though a lot of it is still lurking in the game’s files. The overall length gives me the impression that it’s the gaming equivalent of the theatrical version of David Lynch’s Dune - at least six hours too short.
Not to mention stupid stuff like spelling mistakes, and not just typos in subtitles, but spelling mistakes in fucking neon signs. Plural. The audio was terrible in the US release - the sound was mixed appallingly, which was apparently fixed in the Euro DVD release (I, like an overenthusiastic fool, imported it from America), along with adding hi res movies. Oh, I mentioned them.
Then there were the technical and performance problems - it runs like a rotten dog, even on the X-Box, and especially on the range of Nvidia GeForce cards it advertises in its intro movies. Us ATI owners had to put up with ugly artifacts over the graphics. The engine itself really wasn’t ready for release, although it’s much improved in Thief 3.
DX1 runs like butter on my modern system in 12x10, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. Sure, the game ran like crap if you had a mid-or-lower-range system without a Glide card, but remember, Direct3D was just getting away from being a slug back then, and Voodoo was still kicking. The game is free of any performance bugs–no memory leaks, no wasted cycles, etc–I think the performance issue, which is moot nowadays, was more a sign of the times than the sign of bad programming.
[/quote]
I had a K7 700 with 512mb of ram and a GeForce DDR when Deus Ex came out, and I don’t think I got more than 20FPS in the best parts of the game. Didn’t bother me, but then again, I got better performance out of DX2 on release day.
Did you just… not play Hong Kong? Yes, some of the voice acting in DX was good. I’m one of the few people who liked JC’s voice acting. But some of those voices made me grind my teeth.
Most of my issues with the AI had to do with simple things, like the fact you could kill a guy standing next to another guy, with the other guy never noticing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but something like that wouldn’t have been particularly difficult to deal with.
Chronicles of Riddick. Also, it is not a defence of a bad feature to say “Well, everyone else’s is bad as well.”
Actually, I think FPSs are the future of almost all genres. But in DX, the weapon aiming and skill system for guns sucked ass. In DX2 you had lack of headshots, flimsy guns, and universal ammo (which I didn’t have a problem with, but most people did, so I listed it.)
Sure, but it was still the weakest level of both games.
“Thanks for gettin’ me in!”
Shudder.
Sure, but it was still the weakest level of both games.
Definitely disagree with this. The whole Liberty Island level is what drew me in and convinced me to buy the game. It’s one of my favourite parts of DX1 and I still enjoy playing it. The revised version in DX2 was awful, no doubt about that.
Liberty Island also sold me with the demo of the first game. Doesn’t change the fact that every other level was superior.
…on your K7 700?
Like I said, performance was less a fault of the game itself and more of the weak D3D API.
Did you just… not play Hong Kong? Yes, some of the voice acting in DX was good. I’m one of the few people who liked JC’s voice acting. But some of those voices made me grind my teeth.
I don’t remember Hong Kong as being annoying, really. I’m sure I laughed at some of the lines/voices, but I do that with every game, so…
Most of my issues with the AI had to do with simple things, like the fact you could kill a guy standing next to another guy, with the other guy never noticing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but something like that wouldn’t have been particularly difficult to deal with.
Stuff like that’s been a problem in many games up until quite recently. There’s a reason why Thief and Metal Gear Solid were said to have such great AI: they’re some of the first games to have good routines for stuff like that.
Chronicles of Riddick. Also, it is not a defence of a bad feature to say “Well, everyone else’s is bad as well.”
Ok, Riddick is an example. But it’s the first and only I can think of.
And it certainly is a defense. It’s quite a Catch-22, actually. You’d be bitching if it didn’t have stealth support.
Actually, I think FPSs are the future of almost all genres. But in DX, the weapon aiming and skill system for guns sucked ass. In DX2 you had lack of headshots, flimsy guns, and universal ammo (which I didn’t have a problem with, but most people did, so I listed it.)
That’s a horribly bleak future, then.
How did it “suck ass?” Too inaccurate? Too accurate? Not scaled right?
Do you think universal ammo is future of almost all genres too? Years from now will I have this big blue bar in the corner of every game, dropping as I take any sort of action? Will gamers become the equivalent of Diablo-esque Interface Sorcerers, steadily draining their blue bar to alter events and resting or running for powerups when it gets low?
Sure, but it was still the weakest level of both games.
While I don’t agree with you, I don’t see how your point detracts from the game anyway. When you have a set of things, one will always be worse than all the rest in some aspect, while one will always be better than all the rest in the same aspect. That this self-assembling system reality exists is a mark against Deus Ex? Wha?
Gotta disagree about the performance, Ebonstone. It’s no coincidence that (I believe) the very first patch specifically addressed D3D performance issues, because the Unreal engine was optimized for 3DFX use since day one. Unreal also required similar patching for the benefit of non-3DFX users - it took seemingly forever to get one, but once it happened, the difference in performance was astounding. It’s not a fault with the D3D API when other games with better graphics ran much more smoothly in D3D than Deus Ex did (one obvious example - Sacrifice).
I also don’t buy that somehow Deus Ex 1’s AI was somehow really good for its time. Yes, it beat out Soldier Of Fortune, but it sure didn’t beat out Unreal 1, UT, Blood 1, or Thief, and arguably not System Shock 2 or Heretic 2 (although I haven’t played those two games in a while so my impression might be mistaken). DX1’s AI was incredibly straightforward, and while this didn’t ruin the game or anything, it just BAFFLES me when people try to tell me DX2’s AI is somehow worse. Yes, at times I’ve seen it do stupid shit, but I’ve also seen it do much cooler stuff that’s only possible because it’s noticably more advanced. I will, however, readily admit that DX2 has obvious room for improvement, as what little I’ve gotten to play of Farcry seems to beat out DX2 in the AI department.
I do apologize to anyone (most notably Sam Jones) who took my “rose-colored glasses” as a mockery - I didn’t intend it that way, but I obviously could have phrased it a lot better because there’s no real other way to take what I said. HOWEVER - no, wait, I give up. Seriously, in most cases where I dislike a game that others like or vice versa, I can at least understand why we think differently. For whatever reason, I just do not get why a DX1 fan can wind up hating the sequel. Disappointed to an extent? Okay - I was too! But to the point of calling it “miserable”? Guh?! That’s the fundamental disconnect I have here - maybe it’s because I’ve played so many far worse games that I’m giving DX2 too much of a pass, maybe I was willing to largely ignore the two instances of “consolization”… but I just cannot comprehend how the sequel is supposedly no better than the original, let alone far worse.
The “rose-colored glasses” comment stems from my personal opinion that DX1 is a really good game, and I might even go so far as to call it a “flawed classic”, but for me the keyword is “flawed” because too many things about it bugged me. So when I hear/read people slagging the sequel as not being the brilliant game the original was, I immediately think “you’re too kind to the original”. But obviously this is all just our opinions and I don’t want to try to pass off anything I say as undisputable fact (well, aside from the “Unreal engine had shitty D3D implementation” argument - the devs basically said as much).
Then you would have to say the first game was intrinsically flawed too. With DX they wanted to make a swiss army knife design. Its a shooter, its a stealth game, its a RPG and more. Its neat on paper but the flaws of trying to do all of that also showed through.
I can see the enticement of the game and the possibilites it offerred but I think DX shows what happens when devs bite off more than they can chew.
No, I don’t.
Deus Ex 2, no two ways about it, set out to DUMB DOWN the first game. This is not a good design choice. Warren Spector himself made some idiot comment along the lines of players being ruled by a “tyranny of choices,” and that horrible issue needing to be resolved. And so we get Deus Ex 2, which removes the tyranny of different kinds of ammo, and decent AI, and big levels, and multiple paths.
Deus Ex 2 is a fantastic game if you’re an utter drooling idiot.
Invisible War apparently didn’t rape you of your innocence …
… Warren, my ass still hurts!
I am a slobbering DX fanboy through and through, certainly not afraid to admit it. But the shortcomings it had (and it had them) were nowhere large enough to be a detriment to my experience.
And it was very much an experience for me. The locales added so much to the first game and the habit-trail level design of IW was such a detriment in that regard.
I know this was more directed toward the people who aren’t frenzied about it, but I had my reservations about it the first time I played. The Liberty Island map was really cool, but didn’t do much for me. Then UNATCO’s cramped office space didn’t instill much in me. But what really bugged me were the incredibly wooden animations. I can ignore them after having played the game dozens of times since release, but the first time I saw an NSF soldier just fall down on his back, I wondered WTF they spent so much time working on.
I’ll give IW one positive – using HAVOK did a lot for interacting (meaning shooting) a character at any given moment.
A lot of my disdain comes in where the experience failed me. And perhaps that would have happened no matter what, but I really do believe they were capable of continuing the story in a way I could have appreciated.