I consider it a roguelite. Roguelites in my definition take rogue-like elements (the 3 P’s) and transfer them to any other genre: Isaac to a top down Zelda-style game, Spelunky to sidescrolling platformer, FTL to a space-sim RTS, and Invisible Inc to a turn-based tactical x-com-like game, etc.
Sure, I have no problems with anyone calling anything a “roguelite.” Call anything a roguelite!
I take issue with the “3 P’s” being considered anything other than Tom listing some of his favorite things, and Invisible Inc is NOT like X-Com, but other than that I commend you, sir!
The problem with that 3P definition to me is progression, because as you point it out, it can cover widely differing design ideas that I could go as far as saying go in opposite ways (on one extreme: making the game more complex and harder and so more interesting as you progress in your knowledge of it, a-la Isaac ; on the other the uninteresting grind to the ending of Rogue Legacy).
Right. Saying roguelikes have “persistent progression” is like saying roguelikes have graphics. Some do. Some don’t. And the same goes for literally every other genre. (Well, I guess most other genres always have graphics. But you get it.)
I’ve been watching players do blind playthrough of action games. So at some progression level, you could say you don’t need those anymore!
But they all accomplish the same thing. Persistent progression is more about psychology than mechanics. Progression offsets the inherent frustration of permadeath. There are many ways to do this, but it’s a fundamental part of how modern rogue-likes are made. It can be unlockables, a bucket of experience points with reward thresholds, or even just a graveyard/high-score list. As long as you’ve achieved something that persists after losing your character, you’re inclined to play again. A rogue-like without this is missing a fundamental psychological element that makes rogue-likes so effective.
-Tom
You just rolled the biggest logical fallacy fumble I’ve seen this side of a GOP talking point!
It’s not just a matter of whether rogue-likes have something. For me, it’s a matter of looking at the genre as a whole and thinking critically about what makes it so effective, how it’s developed over time, what the latest designs have in common. You seem to be talking taxonomy, or semantics at best. But I’m more interested in analysis. The real question is this: what makes a rogue-like tick? Why are they so psychologically effective? In my experience, it’s the dramatic tension of high stakes, the longer term gratification of accomplishment, and the thrill of discovery. Describing it as 3 P’s is a mnemonic device, not a commandment.
-Tom
You got me there. And I understand what you’re meaning now, better than I ever did on stream. The word progression is still an issue to me, as it comes second to persistence, which is what I really find hooking, however futile it may be, and I think it encompasses more what you are meaning, as progression is somewhat positively connoted, in the same way that grinding is, negatively.
But anyway, now I get it. That being said, graveyards have always been part of roguelikes, haven’t they? Or maybe that was your point from the beginning.
Okay, looks like we agree that unlockables are not a requirement for a roguelike, but rather, a thing you like for games to have! I like them too (if they are done properly).
I have been really enjoying my first character. I am almost level 50 and have been mostly keeping all of the mutations that they give me, even the bad ones.
I still have a love hate relationship with my Lycanthropy mutation. It allows for more damage and attack speed, but locks all skills/spells from being used. I have a pretty high life leech build, though, so if I keep up attacking things quickly enough, it normally keeps up with any incoming damage. I can’t heal, so have to rely on potions when in that form if I need extra healing.
One other cool effect I had going for a while was when in the dungeon/underground zones I had a weapon with an Earthquake effect. It was awesome at doing some additional AE damage with some cool effects, but it would also cause lots of cave ins and after multiple deaths due to being buried alive I contracted the Claustrophobia mutation which lowered my ability to fight well underground. I thought that was pretty clever.
I do like the varied scenarios, environments, and creatures and it keeps it fresh each map build.
I do agree the large number of possible classes becomes a little underwhelming when you realize that even though I may have 50 classes unlocked, the actual skills become re-used in quite a few classes so while there may be that many classes, the number of actual unique skills isn’t as high as it first appears. Still, there are plenty of options and opportunities to build different characters.
On the happiness, I have had NPCs fight each other when they get annoyed. Some of them you can donate money to to try to alleviate this, but eventually I just let them beat each other up, heh. I can always reload a scenario if I lose and it is expensive to pay them off sometimes.
Yeah the game still tracks a lot of cool stuff, like NPCs hating each other or falling in love and getting married. If someone dies, the relatives get depressed. It’s back to the Din’s Curse level of impact though, which I’m ok with – Zombasite sometimes asked the impossible of you with regard to NPC management.
I do wish you couldn’t fill your town with NPCs so easily. It should be a rare NPC who joins your town.,
There’s a lot of this stuff. Get killed by certain enemies, and you become scared of them. But the game should have been focused around not being able to rid yourself of these ‘minor mutations’ except for very rare instances, and instead, you just use some skill points to rid yourself of them. And guess what, you get those skill points back! Even though the game ultimately hands you around 2000 skill points.
The major mutations should have started with a few at the low levels so you get to see the mechanic, and then a single point every 15 levels or so.
The whole mutation system feels like a rough draft. I get what it’s attempting, but hoo boy, it needs some work before it gets there. In its current state, Din’s Legacy is just a solid Soldak action RPG without a new hook. Which is okay with me, since I don’t really need a new hook. I’m just happy to play a Soldak action RPG.
Didn’t Drox Operative get some major game system revisions after it came out? I haven’t touched Drox Operative since its release. Maybe that will happen with Din’s Legacy, because the mutation idea is pretty cool, even if the implementation is pretty “huh?”
Oh, look, I just found another twenty disposable NPCs to recruit to town. That’s twenty more sidekicks I can get killed without caring in the least.
-Tom
Like all Soldak games, it got extra mechanics in the expansion. I don’t think there’s a planned expansion for DL.
The whole part about The Butcher in Diablo really confused me. How can the Butcher come back after you kill him? You’d have to re-load a saved game from before you killed him, right? Because with each of my 3 characters, once I killed him, he stays dead. Again, if I save the game at any point after his death, I suppose. Or were you talking about killing The Butcher in Diablo 3? In which case, yeah, he always comes back. Diablo 2 and 3 work on a system where things you killed always come back in your next game session, unlike in Diablo, where if you kill something, it always stays dead.
My guess is its Guile, from Borderland Fighters 3
He’s my character in @Balasarius’ forum XCOM game. I am currently a lieutenant well on my way to five-star generalhood! As long as he’s alive, that will be my avatar.
-Tom
EDIT: Just made captain!
Major, now! So… what happens if I win? ;)
Also, feel free to sign up. Need more fodder.
I also started playing Din’s Legacy some days ago.
Haven’t played that much, yet, but I do like it - the mutations really keep a build fresh as you try adjust how you spend your skill points according to where the mutations take you.
The biggest downside of the game has to be how it just throws everything at you at once.
If you play for 10-20 minutes and have amassed a stack of 20+ help popups, something probably went very wrong in the design department and there should have been a tutorial.
I can easily imagine many people giving it a try just to be completely overwhelmed and ditching it not even an hour in. That’s just not necessary, you can combine complex and deep mechanics with an accessible experience, but… not like this.
It took me until level 15 or so before I realized there is a button in the character screen that lets you mutate “on demand” - probably gaining a point there per level-up. So I did all of them at once with a single class (not knowing what it would actually do). Now I have the same “base skills” multiple times, making that particular part of the skills window a mess.
It is also hilarious to me that they use the same crazily inconsistent UI across their games (at least those I played) without ever managing to not make it look like a crazy mess. Colors are all over the place, with single buttons within a screen sometimes having a different color than all other buttons, texts within a single screen covering the entire rainbow spectrum…
I find it endearing in a way, but it’s just the opposite of professional.
It is a real shame that no more games do follow Depth of Peril.
Did you try Hinterland?
It had a similar mix of ARPG and town management, and you could bring townspeople with you to raid dungeons.
You also had to defend the town and choose what to build.
But the ARPG part was really weak (and it is also one of my problems with the genre. I don’t really like Diablo likes anymore).
There is also Hammerhelm that plays a bit like an ARPG/town management game, but there is no assault on your town yet.
Aurora Dusk also is somewhat similair in a way:
You play as a character in a town building game, and you control only yourself, but other NPC can help you finish buildings and you can hire mercenaries or craft golems.