Is there a way to cast close combat spells even semi-effectively? There’s no point to casting them unless you are next to someone that turn, but how can you know just how many “attacks” to click prior to casting the spell? Are all of these “touch of ______” spells effectively worthless (except maybe for flyers, who automatically end up right next to something after one attack move)? Will the AI sometimes automatically use a spell if you simply set the order to generally attack?
If you set it to attack, an overwhelming majority of the time it will do just that–close to a range acceptable for its weapon, and use its weapon to physically harm the enemy.
However, if you set no orders for the unit, you give full power to the AI, and it’ll do whatever’s best (in its opinion) for the unit–if the creature has magic, it’ll cast. If it’s an archer, it’ll shoot. If it’s a priest, it’ll cast morale buffs.
Finally, if you set the unit to Cast Spells, it’ll stay put and, well, cast. I’ve never seen a mage with “Cast Spells” on close in and use a Touch spell. When an enemy unit is next to him, however, I have seen a mage use a Touch spell to give himself some breathing room.
Being serious, not sarcastic, I want to make sure I’ve got your general gist. What you are saying as to voluntary use of magic touch spells is that you know of no reliable way to make a mage close in, cast a touch spell, and then hammer someone?
I’ve never found a reliable way to get non-flying mages to use touch spells. If you have a flyer and do attack one turn, they’ll close to melee guaranteed. I really think the touch spells are mostly there for A.) flying supercombatant pretenders and B.) last ditch attacks by mages about to be swarmed under.
But then, I think battlefield magic in general is feebly underpowered in dom2 with only a few exceptions. I favor spending all my magical resources on summons and items.
As I understand it, the consensus seems to be that touch attack spells are pretty much useless… it’s almost impossible to make a mage use them correctly.
[quote=“Anaxagoras”]
As I understand it, the consensus seems to be that touch attack spells are pretty much useless… it’s almost impossible to make a mage use them correctly.[/quote]
This should definately be fixed then, or the spells should be stripped from the game. There are so many of them, it’s almost as if it is a broken item (a lot of chrome and effort for very little effect in game).
Well, the touch spells are really in the same boat as 99% of the personal buff spells; only useable by nasty supercombantant pretenders. I think it boils down to the fact that melee is a death sentence for any mage unless they are a powerful pretender or summoned mage. So all the melee spells (buffs, touch range spells) are really just for those types of melee mages to cast.
Being serious, not sarcastic, I want to make sure I’ve got your general gist. What you are saying as to voluntary use of magic touch spells is that you know of no reliable way to make a mage close in, cast a touch spell, and then hammer someone?[/quote]Correct.
There are some good touch spells, yes, but their use is extremely limited. By the time you have a good one, you’ll have a good ranged spell too… so…
[quote=“Nick_Walter”]
Well, the touch spells are really in the same boat as 99% of the personal buff spells; only useable by nasty supercombantant pretenders. I think it boils down to the fact that melee is a death sentence for any mage unless they are a powerful pretender or summoned mage. So all the melee spells (buffs, touch range spells) are really just for those types of melee mages to cast.[/quote]
Except that nasty supercombatants can use personal buffs and then go fight with the buff intact. Unless they fly (in which case you can probably use a hand-to-hand spell once successfully), even a nasty supercombatant pretender apparently cannot successfully use the hand-to-hand spells, because of the impossibility of timing when to use them.
It would be good if spell casters set on attack would use hand-to-hand spells when appropriate I think, although I’m not sure for the ramification on the game’s balance.
That’s a pretty darn good idea. I’d recommend dropping it on the shrapnel boards and seeing what the devs think.
What’s so tricky? You buff, attack for a round, and then give orders to cast the spell.
Typically melee opponents are are closing while you buff, so getting the timing right is mostly a matter of placement on the field. Most of the relavent mages are either flying or mounted anyway, so generally one turn of attacking is enough.
The main limitation is it only works for mages that can afford to risk melee, but Shockwave is a staple tactic for Vanheim, Tuatha, and many air Pretenders. Immolation seems to me like it might have potential for Ulm and Machaka as well. Shockwave can be a brutally potent spell, considering it’s only Evocation 2. Immolation isn’t as good and is level 3, but it’s Alteration and on the way to Iron Skin and Invulnerbility.
[quote=“Nick_Walter”]
That’s a pretty darn good idea. I’d recommend dropping it on the shrapnel boards and seeing what the devs think.[/quote]
What if I’d rather have my mage attack in melee than cast touch spells? In fact with a good magic weapon this is most likely the cast, plus spells use more fatigue than attacking.
What might work instead is to have moving forward to contact be considering part of casting something like Shockwave or Hand of Death (shudder). Even then, what if you wanted you mage to cast the spell if opponents were in range, but override to another spell if they weren’t?
I think there are two answers. The easy one for the player, and hard one (probably) for Illwinter is to have the AI make a determination as to which makes more sense. If you are in a position where the magic weapon does bettter than the spell, the spell should not be cast. We rely (sometimes to our anger) on the AI to do a lot of this already in other areas (oh, I don’t think that spell is useful, even though it is scripted, so I’ll cast something different).
The other answer is to have an “attack” and “attack and cast” button.
The most logical thing would be to make specific spell casting a tiered set of commands–until they cast the first listed spell, they can’t do anything else save for closing to a range where they can use the spell.
But then it would also be good if they would keep using hand-to-hand spells, even if the combat lasts longer than the five scripted turns. I understand that there are ways to get a creature to fire off one or two close combat spells if you script things properly, but just as you can set a spell caster up to cast distance spells and similar things for the entire combat round (putting them on cast spells or stay behind), it would be nice if there was a way to have a general “close combat caster” setting.
As it is now, I guess I do not know if what I’m arguing for has any value; other than seeing Jasper’s units do it a couple of times, I have no real idea what hand-to-hand spells do or whether they are of any value, because I’ve never seen them used.
I just think it’s a waste that there are tactical opportunities in the game, such as using some of the h-t-h spells that strike death creatures, that just cannot be fully exploited in the game as it currently stands.
I actually don’t mind that most of the touch spells are not usable as things stand. The dom2 spell list is just staggeringly huge and with a list that big of course you will have some spells that are only useful in limited specific circumstances. If I want a mage to fight, I’ll forge them a wraith sword, so it’s not like this mages don’t have options for effective melee.
I don’t mind from the sense that I’m complaining the game is broken, either; it just seems like there is even more potential in the already great spell list just waiting to be unlocked.
I almost would like to get the nearly never used spells removed, if no fix will be made, simply because it makes extra effort to scroll through the list and constantly remember, “No, wait, that one is useless because it is close combat.”
But then, I think battlefield magic in general is feebly underpowered in dom2 with only a few exceptions. I favor spending all my magical resources on summons and items.
Wow, I have to totally disagree with you. Try out Fog Warriors, or Flame Arrows, or Wind Guide, or Battle Fortune, or Mass Protection, or Mass Regeneration or etc etc etc. You can take an army of crap militia and beat an army of elite warriors with these spells.
Well, the touch spells are really in the same boat as 99% of the personal buff spells; only useable by nasty supercombantant pretenders. I think it boils down to the fact that melee is a death sentence for any mage unless they are a powerful pretender or summoned mage. So all the melee spells (buffs, touch range spells) are really just for those types of melee mages to cast.
Again, I have to disagree. Personal buff spells are huge for even non-melee mages. Mirrot Image, or Quickness, or Mistform, or Invulnerability can make a mage’s life expectancy much greater. Nothing like having uber mages picked off by a stray arrow or a cav unit that snuck around the edges.
I’m with Clark. Battlefield magic kicks ass, and starts to dominate around the mid game. Battlefield Fire/Cold/Lightning/Poison can all be quite powerfull, and similarily the Wards against them are quite usefull. Relief lets your practically ignore fatigue and makes a whole slew of effects more powerfull. Communion backed spells can be brutal – especially if backed by Relief.
IMHO if you ignore battle magic you will lose.
But then it would also be good if they would keep using hand-to-hand spells, even if the combat lasts longer than the five scripted turns. I understand that there are ways to get a creature to fire off one or two close combat spells if you script things properly, but just as you can set a spell caster up to cast distance spells and similar things for the entire combat round (putting them on cast spells or stay behind), it would be nice if there was a way to have a general “close combat caster” setting.
As it is now, I guess I do not know if what I’m arguing for has any value; other than seeing Jasper’s units do it a couple of times, I have no real idea what hand-to-hand spells do or whether they are of any value, because I’ve never seen them used.
I just think it’s a waste that there are tactical opportunities in the game, such as using some of the h-t-h spells that strike death creatures, that just cannot be fully exploited in the game as it currently stands.[/quote]Theoretically the HtH caster would be in HtH range after completing a tier assignment which included a HtH spell, so if he was set to “Cast Spells” after the assignment, AND the spell AI wasn’t broken, he should continue casting them just fine, especially if they’re more powerful than ranged ones.