Before kids, my wife and I got a puppy - a Golden Retriever. We both loved the dog, and believed all the magazine articles and such about how you could housetrain the dog without ever hitting it by coaxing and such. At the time, we were living with my parents (waiting for our house to be built). The dog kept having accidents once or twice a week.
Right about the time we moved into our new house, our dog pooped on the carpet, and I held her nose close to the poop, rolled up a newspaper and swatted it on the nose. It shocked the dog. I believe that was the last accident (bar a couple times when the dog was ill or we forgot to let it out for 12 hours or something…) Moreover, for other things the dog did wrong (chewing up something, etc), all I had to do was roll up a newspaper and wave it around in her face a bit (not even hit her), and she learned very quickly. Soon, it was a very well behaved (although hyper, as young Goldens are).
Re: Child discipline. I think it’s all about degree. There are many things in life which, overdone, are negative, but in appropriate doses, are good (alcohol, food, etc), and I think corporal punishment is one of those. I wouldn’t advocate the level of punishment applied to Olaf, but as others have pointed out, where parents are reluctant to exert themselves, to the level of never spanking a kid, there is a risk of raising a young hooligan.
A 3 or 4 year old I think has a hard time connecting misdeeds to punishments that primarily fall over the course of hours or days separated from the event (i.e. loss of TV/dessert/whatever privelidges). Timeouts are ok, because they generally happen immediately after the event in question, and are done within 2-10 minutes, while the child can still recall the misdeed. But when the kids are 3 or 4, telling them to behave or they won’t get dessert or such is not much of a deterrent (they can’t think that far ahead), and telling them that the reason they can’t have dessert is because they misbehaved in manner X a few hours ago is also weak (they can’t quite recall the specifics of the misdeed). For young children, IMO, it’s best to put the misdeed in near time proximity to the punishment.
As for Denmark making it illegal to administer ANY sort of corporal punishment… If that is in fact the case, that’s a terrible law, IMO, and a huge step of government nanny-ism into the role of the parent. Again, it is possible for individuals to rationally separate appropriate corporal punishment (occasional spankings), from abuse (fist to the face), but this sounds like government micro-management of parental roles.
We took it up a notched by doing things like putting on a movie he liked, or playing a game he loved while he stood in the corner not being able to see or take part. That made all the difference in the world on our son.
That’s a great idea.
One time when I was a kid I was acting up at Thanksgiving dinner, I forget what I was doing exactly. My dad made me stand in this archway holding a piece of paper between my forehead and the arch for a few minutes while everyone else ate.
We have twin boys, now age 7, one of which is very spontaneous (acts before thinks) and boundry pushing. We do not spank. Timeout is generally first, except in-cases of flagrant disobedience. Escalating consequences follow quickly as needed, and include temporary/permenant loss of toys, loss of privilages (computer games, TV, dessert, fun trips, etc), and loss of money (they accrue money for doing chores). He has tried to continue the bad behaviour or try to leave timeout a couple of times, but the quick escalation checks the behaviour rapidly.
I think the key is consistency. My wife and I NEVER countermand or question discipline handed out by the other near the children. Bad behaviour always results in discipline. Punishment, once given, is not softened (so don’t make a threat you cannot live with) unless the change in punishment is due to a change in behaviour.
Not saying its perfect, because there are times when we want to pull out our hair, but it works for us.
I love how black and white this issue is. It always seems to degenerate into “touch your kid and you might as well shoot yourself” vs. “kid had a beatin’ comin’.”
From the kid’s perspective, I can only remember one spanking I recieved, and it was warranted, measured, memorable, and damned effective. As a parent, I try to emulate that use of corporal punishment, for example, if my three year old is reaching for a hot stove burner, depending on the situation, she might get a spanking. Fortunately, my government agrees with me since small doses of corporal punishment are not illegal, but child abuse is.
That said, I’m actually glad that there are so many people committed to never using corporal punishment (even if their holier-than-thou attitude is occasionally off-putting) because they make it much less socially acceptable, and that’s a good thing.
Actually the best punishment for my boys when two of them are arguing and fighting is to make them hold hands and run around the house three times. I think they’d rather be beaten with a cinder block than have to do that again.
One other thing I’d add, re: memories of how our parents treated us as children.
While I can remember a few specific things back to age 3 or 4 (not punishment related), my memories of the interaction between my parents and I (discipline and otherwise), are probably fairly hazy up to about age 7 or 8, and are certainly clearest from about age 10+.
I had no younger siblings, so I didn’t get to observe my parents disciplining the young 'uns.
I suspect that the above scenario is roughly true for many others as well.
As a result, my memories of my parents’ disciplinary measures are heavy on those that apply well to an older kid (reasoning with them, grounding them, loss of privelidges, allowance, or whatnot), and light on things that I think are more likely to be effective with young kids (timeouts and the relatively rare spanking…)
It’s easy to fall into the trap of applying what was effective with you at age 11 to your own kids at age 4.
The most effective behavior deterrent I’ve ever used with him, I learned from an article in the NY Times about training dolphins.
The Rimbino would squeal. You know, the kind of high-pitched shriek that strikes a parent right at the base of the neck and skull. I learned when he did it to do what the trainers do: Look away from him, completely disinterested, no reaction at all. Rimbino still squeals – around Mommy, who freaks out every time he does it. But he never does it around me. It’s ridiculously effective.
That said, there are times when something sterner is required, and I realized what my parents did right:
Never do it in anger. If you’re pissed, don’t touch the kid.
The strike is not meant to wound, it’s just symbolic. I don’t even swat to where it would sting. If this means it becomes an ineffective punishment and I have to use other more effective measures later, so be it.
This is easier typed into an internet post than done, when you’re at the end of your rope, the kid’s whacking you with an RC car antenna, and shrieking at just that right pitch. So… we’ve made mistakes. The important thing then is to fess up to the mistake, apologize, kiss and make up. (It’s what we teach him to do, too; it’s not OK to hit us, but if he kisses and makes it better, it’s all good.)
But I’m practicing doing the “no reaction” reaction, and mixed in with lots of praise whenever he does something right. It’s not my nature to do either (is it anyone’s?), but both are very effective, which encourages me to do them more.
I’m committed to not having kids. I think more people should have that attitude. Is there a litmus test we can deliver to folks to determine if they’d be fit parents? Or better yet, a genetics test to see what the kids will turn out like? We’ll abort all the Dahmers and let the Jimi Hendrixs live free.
I’m sure there’s some snark in there that I’m supposed to be taking personally, but I’m just too dumb or too short to catch it. Sorry, Met_K, I’ll try harder to take offense next time. :)
Obviously possible for punishment to be excessive or to be delivered not as actual punishment, but as venting anger or frustration caused by the child (and in some cases, not even related to the child). Those cases, parents may well want to think twice before they raise their hands against their kids.
Believe the description in the original post to be pretty decent example of non-excessive corporal punishment. If threat of punishment curbs children’s acting out just as much as punishment itself, that’s a boundary that kids learn not to cross. Believe that the sooner children learn there are certain types of behavior that aren’t acceptable in the home (within reason), sooner they learn there are certain types of behavior that aren’t acceptable in society, in the outside world. Just 2 cents here.
This is certainly important, but hard to always be perfect about. My wife and I avoid counteracting decisions (disciplinary or otherwise) made by the other, that we KNOW about. But, as the kids get a little older/more clever, they learn to game the system a bit - asking permission from parent B if/after parent A refuses. It’s not always practical for parent B to always check with parent A to see if they were already asked about the issue in question, so occasionally the kids can get away with one in this manner.
My response is to usually punt on the types of decisions my wife tends to administer (what kinds of foods, when). “Go ask your mother”.
My family was an interesting experiment in child punishment. Both my older brother and sister got the slipper for misbehaving, but by the time I was old enough to take a beating, they decided to give it up. My brother got eight years of the slipper, my sister four, and me none.
The main difference between us is in our level of non-conformity. My brother is very conservative, and his aspirations very traditional. My sister is a little more different, and many would think she was a bit leftfield in her thinking, but she still lives a very traditional way of life, with two kids, and a steady husband. She refused to get married and have kids for years, though, but finally felt forced to conform.
I, on the other hand, don’t like to conform to anyone’s rules. I will break laws if I don’t agree with them. I won’t act like society expects me to, unless I happen to want to behave like that. If someone says I shouldn’t do something, or shouldn’t act in a certain way, then if there is no good reason for me not to, I am even more determined to do as I please.
Interestingly I still follow my parent’s moral code quite strictly, it’s just that I take that code, apply it to the rules of society, and if they don’t match, then I don’t obey the rule.
There’s no snark towards you. It was just something that I thought of due to your commitment paragraph
I just wish that there was as much of a push towards not having kids as there is to not physically punishing children. As is, there seems to be far too many folks who are “Physically punishing children is my god given right!” and “Physically punishing children is abuse!” as opposed to “Shit, I’m fucking crazy and reactionary, maybe I shouldn’t have kids.”
I’m not having kids because I’m selfish. The first time my kid ever called me a “dumb fucker” I’d probably hug him, though.
My dad had a catty-nine-tail whip that struck fear into my six year old heart. My mom wouldn’t let him hit me with it because I was too little. But my older brothers were getting hit and I was only 2 years younger than my next oldest brother, so I knew it was only a matter of time. One day we stole the cat and threw it into the trash. My oldest brother made me stuff it into the trash can so that I would be complicit and (hopefully) not tell. It worked! This is my first public confession of that crime. :)
I’d tend to game the system back personally. “Have you already asked your mother about this?” Making sure they know that if they lied to you it’s a much more serious thing. That way it’s squarely their responsibility (as it is anyway, no matter how clever they think they’re being) if they try to go around one parent like that.
Having children is a huge life change, and is not for everyone. But I think the money end of it is overrated. Yes, kids are very expensive. But in the greater scheme of things, it seems odd to avoid having kids so you can buy a PS3 on launch rather than a year or two later, or buy a new $25,000 car every 3 years rather than a used $20,000 car every 5 years. The toys (and lifestyle) we buy are pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
Again, I’m not saying that everyone should have kids, just that this particular objection, IMO, should not be a prohibitive one for most folks.
