Don't make me take off my belt, son

[Hans_Lauring]

@mouselock

There’s a pretty trite answer I could give, but the real one is that of course it would, but I’m also not a child.

The very idea that children function on the level of an adult so should therefore be treated as an adult is absurd to me. Should we start locking kids up for assault when they hit their sister? I mean, if spanking is violence regardless of context, surely hitting is assault regardless of context as well, yes?

It’s interesting that you are posting this from one of the few nations in the civilized world where children are rutinely tried as adults in a court of law.

Nobody is saying that children functions on the level of an adult - even in Sweden you have to be 18 to vote and certain other things (buy porn and booze, drive a car etc.). But they can have the same rights as an adult even though they don’t enjoy the same freedoms.

[LesJarvis]

@mouselock

To me, spanking is something that does no damage but leaves a sting and, more importantly, a sense that the transgression was severe enough to deserve punishment well outside the norm. I don’t like the idea of spanking for any little thing; I think that is abusive and probably unlikely to help in the long run. But I’m still trying to get where the stridently non-spanking types go when they need to enact a punishment that leaves zero doubt that the transgression was so bad that it will not be tolerated again. If you limit yourself to no dessert, time-outs, etc… what do you do when your 4 year old darts out into the middle of the street?

OK, now I can see where you’re coming from, you had me worried for a second. My stance is: in any situation where the child puts themselves or another person in immediate, severe danger, spanking can be warranted, so in general I think I’m in agreement with you. I think routine spanking is absolutely indefensible, however. Of course, I don’t have any kids, so LOL EASY FOR ME TO SAY.

[Matt_Perkins]

@mouselock

This is likely true.

I guess I see a real difference between “hitting” someone and “spanking” them. I would never, ever, ever hit a child. (Hell, or another human being period.) Hitting to me involves a connotation of “I’m trying to damage you.”

I would spank, though, because spanking to me has a connotation of “I’m trying not to damage you, but to leave an impression.”

I think the break down for me is this. Whether you’re thinking of it as hitting or not, spanking is the physical act of hitting someone on the butt. It IS hitting.

As I said earlier, I was spanked as a kid and it didn’t ruin me for life, but at the same time, I still think it’s unnecesary.

If you limit yourself to no dessert, time-outs, etc… what do you do when your 4 year old darts out into the middle of the street?
That’s a good question and hard to answer without being there. Our neighbor across the street had their kid do this right in front of me (from their side to our side) and told him to come over to me and we talked about how that wasn’t cool, he could get hurt very badly and he won’t be allowed to come over to my house anymore if he continues to do it.

shrugs

Now I can’t say he’s never done that again, but he’s never done it around me.

This is the big trick about parenting. Kids don’t HAVE to listen. They just don’t realize it. They have no idea about this and won’t really grasp that until they get older if you impose your will upon them when they are young. And by the time they are old enough to get it, it will be all right, because they will be used to it. That is, of course, until they turn into a teenager and decide to rebel for the pure sake of it. I’m not looking forward to that.

But the point being, kids don’t have to listen. How you convince them they have to is with your attitude, your unflinching requirement that they do. Kids are MUCH happier with rules and boundaries in their life. Establish those boundaries and after a while you won’t have to establish hardly at all. And I do that without spanking my kids. It’s our choice and it’s very important to my wife and I.

*This is all from growing up as the oldest and now having been a parent for almost nine years. So make of my advice what you will. :)

[Kalle]

@shift6

I agree they are both a form of violence, but your last post seemed to imply equating vastly different degrees of violence. If a child was making a scene in a store, could the parent grab the child’s arm and sternly direct walk them out of the store and leave? Would this violation of personal space be acceptable?

My last post was pointing out that what we today see as spousal abuse, period, used to be broken down in “light and acceptable” punishment for the good of the family and “excessive and harmful” which was frowned upon and legally sanctionable. We no longer make these distinctions with spouses but some people still do with children, apparantly.

Taking a child by the arm to remove them from a store is not the same as intentional violence to discipline them, and I do not equate the two. Intent matters, and what is protected is a child’s physical person. Not her personal space or her ability to choose where to spend her time.

[Kalle]

@mouselock

There’s a pretty trite answer I could give, but the real one is that of course it would, but I’m also not a child.

So somehow not-violence becomes violence as soon as you turn 18, that’s your position as I understand it. Hitting someone with the intent to cause pain and a negative reaction is violence in my eyes, simple as that.

[mouselock]

@Kalle

So somehow not-violence becomes violence as soon as you turn 18, that’s your position as I understand it. Hitting someone with the intent to cause pain and a negative reaction is violence in my eyes, simple as that.

No Kalle. It becomes violence due to the context. An act that’s violent in one context is not violent in another. (Some acts are violent in most every context you can think of.)

Hitting someone with the intent to cause pain and a negative reaction is violence all the time is it? So Sweden outlaws S&M does it?

I don’t think it’s that simple at all.

[Rimbo]

@Phil_Stein

Most adults who were mildly spanked as children, looking back on it as adults see it as a relatively good thing (taught them discipline when simpler measures failed). For evidence of this, see the many comments in this thread to that effect.

But with your two examples, I doubt most of the victims, interviewed after the fact, would agree that the action was merited. (Actually, perhaps I shouldn’t make the comment about female circumcision, as I know little about it. Most males circumcised as babies don’t regret it as adults. That said, I know female circumcision is very different, but I don’t know enough about it to speak with confidence…)

Bingo. Even as a child, I knew the difference between swats because I had been bad, and being struck because my parent was being bad (having a bad day… to their credit, as much as I’m an asshole troll on these boards today, as a teenager I really would push people’s buttons). I don’t go around hitting things, nor am I over-conservative in my life choices, and I have wonderful relationships with my parents now.

[Rimbo]

@Matt_Perkins

You accidently burning yourself is the same thing as someone hitting you on purpose? Lousy analogy.

How about this, then: There’s a difference between purposefully hitting a nail with a hammer and hitting the window.

[Rimbo]

@Kalle

Let me put it like this. If you, today, got spanked, would that be violence against you?

No, and in fact it might turn me on.

A lot.

[Qenan]

Having a child was the best thing we ever did, from my point of view. I find my daughter almost infinitely rewarding. Yes, it takes a lot of time, money, and energy. So does climbing Mount Everest.

And no, I don’t hit my daughter. She doesn’t really require it – a harsh look is enough to intimidate her. Nothing works for everyone.

[WarrenM]

Holy hell, what a thread.

[WarrenM]

Yes, it takes a lot of time, money, and energy. So does climbing Mount Everest.

Bizarre response.

[madkevin]

@Qenan

Yes, it takes a lot of time, money, and energy. So does climbing Mount Everest.

Duly noted.

[Qenan]

@EpicBoy

Bizarre response.

Not really. Many rewarding things are hard.

[Anders_Hallin]

@Phil_Stein

But with your two examples, I doubt most of the victims, interviewed after the fact, would agree that the action was merited. (Actually, perhaps I shouldn’t make the comment about female circumcision, as I know little about it. Most males circumcised as babies don’t regret it as adults. That said, I know female circumcision is very different, but I don’t know enough about it to speak with confidence…)

In most societies, female circumcision (or female genital cutting as it is now commonly referred to as) is a tradition perpetuated by the women of said society, due to, I believe, their notion of what being a woman means.
And it is probably far worse than you would want to imagine.

Female genital mutilation

Infibulation

[Anders_Hallin]

@Phil_Stein

I don’t think an unspanked child is necessarily going to turn out worse than a spanked one (this issue being only one small one among many that affect how a child is raised). But I am surprised and dismayed that a nation would feel the need/right to intervene in parenting at so basic a level. I thought Scandanavian nations were supposed to be more socially progressive, and hence have LESS government nannyism?

One consequence I might expect to see if a government went too far in asserting that IT controls the basic relationship of the parents and the child, is that, over the long term, folks would be less inclined to have children. i.e. If it’s gonna be the government’s kid in the end, and the government calling many of the shots, why should I go through the trouble?

I think, in the grand scheme of things, that our law against spanking has absolutely nothing to do with our birth rate. Spanking is not acceptable behaviour in Sweden, so I very much doubt that people have the slightest consideration for a law that in practice does not restrain their power over a child.

Now, if you want to make the argument that in Sweden, our government has so much say in the raising of children that it may be perceived as the child isn’t even yours, there are some things you should know that would probably reinforce that belief:
Percentage of children in some form of local government daycare (from full day to after school hours, depending on age) in age categories:
1-6: 84%
7-9: 76%
10-12: 11%
It should be pointed out that in the large majority of cases, these daycares are not organised by the parents.

The historical roots to this goes back to Alva and Gunnar Myrdal’s text “Crisis in the population issue” from 1934, where, since children were becoming too much of an economical burden and that having the consequence of lowering the birth rate, the people had to be supported by government subsidies and child-raising institutions should be available. The text also supported a family where both parents worked, to move away from the patriarchal family of the past.
Government daycare didn’t really get going until the 70s/80s, though.

You actually go against the grain of most theories regarding birth rates in Sweden, where the daycare program and the right to about a year off with pay after the birth of a baby are credited with the relatively strong birth numbers, compared to countries like Italy, due to less economic disincentives associated with getting children.

As for spanking, I don’t know anyone that I know have been spanked, yet they’re all quite well-adjusted. Proof!

[shift6]

@Kalle

Taking a child by the arm to remove them from a store is not the same as intentional violence to discipline them, and I do not equate the two. Intent matters, and what is protected is a child’s physical person. Not her personal space or her ability to choose where to spend her time.

I know you didn’t equate them, it was meant as a separate question. So if grabbing hold of a kid isn’t wrong because of the intent, then doesn’t it stand to reason that a spanking isn’t wrong because of the intent? Basically I’m trying to figure out what a good solid line of differentiation. Both are examples of a disciplinary action. Both involve physical violation of space. Both can result in harm if the parent is a fuckhead.

@Kalle

So somehow not-violence becomes violence as soon as you turn 18, that’s your position as I understand it. Hitting someone with the intent to cause pain and a negative reaction is violence in my eyes, simple as that.

I know this was a reply to someone else, but since we’re in the thread I thought I’d throw out there: I’d be perfectly fine with lowering the age of adulthood to 14 for everyone, as it traditionally was way back in the day. But that’s just me. ;)

[Rimbo]

shift6 just wants to have sex with 14 year olds ;)

(note: I’m joking)

[shift6]

You’re a horrible, horrible man Rimbo. If I wanted that, I’d move to Albania.

[Rob_Merritt]

My wife and I have ran a licensed in home daycare for the past 14 years. Almost universally kids that have distruptive and violent behavior problems were those from homes that used physical violence as the prime means of discipline. We now use it as part of the screening process. Any parent that says they spank can enroll their children someone else. We are seeing it less and less which is a good thing and hopefully in a generation or two like other forms of abuse it will fall out of favor.