3241

Completely agree. The change in style was a real betrayal for fans of the first game. At the very least, if BioWare wanted to make a game in a completely different tone, art style, and over-the-top fantastical style, I wish the game had just been a franchise spin-off set in the same world, instead of being called DA2.

It was like Francis Ford Coppola releasing Godfather 2, but as an animated cartoon instead of as a dramatic movie - it might be a a good game/movie in its own right, but a slap in the face to fans of the original

3242

Tip: He isn’t.

3243

Except it wasn’t a total change of genre but a move to make combat animations actually somewhat entertaining. Going translucent, trudging behind someone and then seeing the same attack animation you always do but with a bigger combat text number versus a superhuman leap across the battlefield and a devastating finisher.

If DA2 had put in a cover system and given everyone guns, I could see the complaints about a betrayal of the original. It didn’t. It tried to liven up some very old, very boring mechanics of people just standing next to each other swinging a sword until one falls over.

That being said, people don’t like what it tried to do, I get it. But the histrionics about how they turned their backs on anyone is far more over the top than any combat scene in DA2.

3244

Betrayal is a bit strong.

3245

I thought you were ignoring me?

3246

You seem to be taking this a mite personally.

At the very least, if BioWare wanted to make a game in a completely different tone, art style, and over-the-top fantastical style, I wish the game had just been a franchise spin-off set in the same world, instead of being called DA2.

You’re right. If Bioware had made a game in a completely different tone, art style, and over-the-top fantastically style, it should not have been called DA2.

It was like Francis Ford Coppola releasing Godfather 2, but as an animated cartoon instead of as a dramatic movie - it might be a a good game/movie in its own right, but a slap in the face to fans of the original

It sure seems like there’s a lot of slapping in the face going on. I swear, the Interwebs is full of it. You can’t go two blog or forum posts without someone getting slapped in the face. I remember the days when it was enough just to be fired as a customer.

3247

It’s clear from this comment that you just have a facile understanding about what the people complaining liked about the original - a grounded, gritty fantasy game was turned into a cartoonish, fantastical, fairy tale. Tactical, setpiece battles were dumped for lazy, uninspired skirmishes with teleporting reinforcements. DA:O was essentially an updated Baldur’s Gate 2 - an incredibly popular RPG that, unfortunately, hasn’t otherwise inspired much imitation. DA2 was more of a spiritual successor to Jade Empire.

I really don’t get why people feel the need to try to diminish the legitimacy of that disappointment by stating that they didn’t care about (or even recognize) those differences. DA2 is Ultima VIII: Pagan reborn - another post-EA acquisition sequel that some people like, and even the people who dislike it might have enjoyed it on some level if it wasn’t an Ultima/Dragon Age – but it was an installment that fundamentally changed some of the key features (or abandoned them altogether) that made the prior game(s) in those series popular-- so dramatically that fans were pissed, and the ongoing viability of those franchises was threatened a result.

3248

A grounded, gritty fantasy game with fireballs.

was turned into a cartoonish, fantastical, fairy tale.

A cartoonish, fantastical, fairy tale that LOOKS JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL and has LOWER-POWERED MAGIC THAN THE ORIGINAL. Something here is a fantastical fairy tale indeed, but I am not sure it’s what you’re thinking.

Tactical, setpiece battles were dumped for lazy, uninspired skirmishes with teleporting reinforcements.

DA2 is just as tactical, in its use of multiple talent types, range-limited buffs, and cross-class combos. It is more tactical than DAO in that two-thirds of the classes are just as kickass as the remaining third, and fights can’t be won through unlimited use of potions.

I really don’t get why people feel the need to try to diminish the legitimacy of that disappointment by stating that they didn’t care about (or even recognize) those differences.

Because that disappointment is based on an inaccurate reading of the facts.

3249

Hong is just trolling, now. ;)
Let it be, people.

3250

Jaheira is one of my favourite Bioware characters :P

3251

Desslock is completely and totally right. Not a question. If you don’t agree with him, you aren’t being objective. Or your name is hong. Wouldn’t know objective if it sat up and smacked him around.

3252

Hated her. I had her husband kill her, so I could have him all to myself.

Imagine my dismay in Baldur’s Gate 2.

3253

I’m scratching my head at all this sound and fury, signifying little.

I liked both games, for very different reasons. Dragon Age: Origins had excellent tactical combat, some memorable characters, but had sections that were overly long and tedious. (Has no one forgotten the interminable Dwarven / Deep Roads quest?)

Dragon Age 2 improved on the voice acting, gave your character an excellent voice of his / her own and altered the Bioware formula to focus on one location and growing characters and a place over time. Sure, it was flawed – in particular, the third act seemed rushed. But I was happy that it tried to steer away from the increasingly tired tropes of past Bioware games.

3254

Uh, the AOE backstab is a special ability on a single character, and it’s not particularly noteworthy. The animations are far superior and the addition of multiwave combat actually makes the game difficult. I turned DA:O up to nightmare and the combat still bored me; protip, manaclash removes the only dangerous things from the game, everything else dies to gop + gor. Seriously, seriously unfun combat.

DA2, the combat was hard enough that at one boss fight I had to turn down the difficulty to normal. This is massively unusual for me. Ok, partly it was because he had a fucking gimmick that I couldn’t deal with (wtf, spinning red laser beams and mooks that have to be killed in a specific, unknowable order? are you kidding me?). But the actual fights themselves have been very rough, and I’m not sure why.

I mean, in DA:O I think I got knocked down maybe twice the entire game, entirely because I misjudged a fight and placed a guy in the wrong spot. It was trivial to fix things because lol spirit healer. This game healing is rare, rezzing is on a long cooldown, and enemies actually have some fairly fearsome abilities. Backstabbing enemies with the longer bars are seriously fucking terrifying. I started adding HP to casters and rogues because, uh, I was sick of them getting one shotted by invisible dudes popping up behind them.

The other big thing this game gets right? By the end of DA:O I had so many abilities that on the biggest resolution I had the bar all the way pulled from one side to the other and it was fully stocked. With lame shit. Most of which I just got because it was on the way to good things. Urk.

In DA2, your character has a much smaller number of abilities, they can be improved, and you will find them multipurpose. I won the duel (yes there is a duel, Bioware games ALWAYS have a duel) by kiting, throwing potion bombs (I assumed that part of the game would be hard and stocked up on stuff I never use, turned out it was mad handy), and cone of colding the enemy.

I respec’d my mage with a mod and blammo I was happy again (the DLC stuff is retarded. a cheat shop? cheat gear? pay to get respec? gtfo). I still like rogues better (a first for games) but I’m enjoying the frantic nature of kiting and freezing enemies and I love that I can easily swap between them.

Dunno why people think the companion AI is bad. I have hugely complex scripts to manage them with lots of goto and waits where appropriate and they do great. I mostly swap around to do things I like, unlike in DAO where I swapped to them because despite heavy scripting they were still retarded.

The only thing I hate is how enemy casters aren’t so much actual casters as launchers of death bubbles that pop and kill you. What the fuck is that supposed to be, those things suck.

DA:O you could really just be AFK and let your companions handle most fights (dog mod, idle on dog while companions do the rest, amazing how many times I got bored and just left them fighting). DA2 is far more active and, more importantly, dangerous. Plus no more blood wound.

Numbers are simpler too, much of the game really feels like they read the Guild Wars devblogs and did basically that. If only they had been similarly smart with self healing (dedicated healers NEED TO GO) and an in combat revive-through-right-click-and-wait mechanic, it would have been awesome. But it is still a great game. I like that Wynne is no longer stapled to party comps, and I can alternate between Fenris and that chick with the A name (Aveline? that one quest for her in Act 2 is HILARIOUS) and have party comps built around them.

Just like it better. The game is streamlined, so no more hordes of stupid things. I wish they had junked even more, allowed me to switch looks without switching stats, and just applied the upgrade-rather-than-get-new system to the main character’s gear as well. Staff is a staff, let me customize the look and alter the stats but don’t make me go around hunting down new ones; that’s just stupid.

3255

One person’s improvement is another person’s stepback. What’s interesting is people who liked DA 2, apparently more so than 1, are scratching their head asking what is wrong with the people who didn’t like the change as if that is somehow a different position to take than loving DA 1 and not understanding why people think DA 2 changes are better when it feels like a streamlined process for people who don’t like RPGs. Two sides of the same coin really.

I am not sure if sales numbers are accurate, but the last I checked, DA 2 was not doing as well as they had hoped, but it soldpretty well so it’s not as if this an open and shut case with some crowned winner… of what exactly? heh.

3256

It’s clear from this comment that you just have a facile understanding about what the people complaining liked about the original
Considering I liked the original quite a lot myself, no, I doubt that rather much. What’s actually clear is that I disagree with you and you’d rather label that as coming from some terrible case of ignorance than address it.

Tactical, setpiece battles were dumped for lazy, uninspired skirmishes with teleporting reinforcements.
Clearly the only place for tactics is when you know exactly where all the enemies are and will be every time you load. Or when you can easily turn yourself invincible with a simple spell, things of that nature. I’ve heard this argument a few times now and I guess I’d love to know how unexpected enemy encounters removes the need for careful planning, instead of actually enhancing it. I can think of one battle in particular in DA2 where I loaded repeatedly and it was frequently turning out differently as even with placing characters in protected areas, the changing battlefield required further modifications to any original strategy. Are we saying that adaptation in battle is the death of tactics? DA2 was notoriously easy on the lower difficulties and nightmare only added annoyances like immunities and bosses with far too many hitpoints, so perhaps that’s where this mistaken belief hails from rather than the game’s enemy spawn design.

DA:O was essentially an updated Baldur’s Gate 2 - an incredibly popular RPG that, unfortunately, hasn’t otherwise inspired much imitation.
What with the manual sitting on my computer desk shelf to this day, I believe I possess sufficient appreciation of probably the greatest RPG of all time. But if you don’t copy it, it isn’t a tactical RPG affair, or at least not a grounded one? Is it any surprise that on the official forums there was an uproar when it was announced that DA:O would have a max party size of 4? The claims were very similar to yours that it was ignoring the fans of what was supposed to be its spiritual predecessor. Or how about not having a spellbook with daily spells to memorize but mana instead? That sounds like some awful action-RPG level of betrayal there.

I will never defend DA2 as having been an exceptional game as it had numerous flaws, chief among them being repetitive environments and Bioware’s seemingly lost touch for balancing combat abilities and spells, or for that matter even making some of them work as written. But it doesn’t really fly with me that making characters spring into action in incredible ways changes a genre into a cartoon parody of itself. Especially given that Origins itself was rampant with humor and other aspects no one would label as gritty or dark. In fact, the entire dismissal of this game over any other as cartoonish seems especially odd when in all of these we take sword stabs to the gut and walk away just fine seconds later. It seems far more likely that DA2 moved on and changed like every future game will and some are horribly upset about that. To the level that should be reserved for things like XCOM becoming a shooter instead of anything that took place in this series.

3257

I don’t want to get all crazy with facts, but the devs have basically cried a few times about how DA1 players didn’t like the changes and they will be working on DA3 to bring those players back.

Now to translate that. Sales weren’t as good for DA2. Plain and simple.

You can say DA2 moved on, but in reality, it had an incredibly accelerated development schedule, lost it’s main designer between 1 and 2 (in big part because he didn’t like the design choices and the timeline), and “streamlined” (cut back) many of the features most of us loved in DA1.

So, yes, you may have enjoyed it. But it wasn’t better selling, it isn’t the next generation in RPGs and to boot, yes, it’s very cartoonish. Facts is facts.

3258

Correct. Might as well delete the rest of your post now!

3259

I liked how DA2 has had a much more quotidian feel. It isn’t all about saving the world. Like, I’m on act 2 or something and the world seems to be doing fine. The city is a little bonkers, but that’s it. Instead, it’s all about my companions and doing quests with them (often very entertaining so long as they don’t involve Anders, that whining tool who I insult at every opportunity). I especially like how the whole first act was about me and my brother trying to get enough cash together to go on an expedition so that we could strike it rich. And how he was so pissed at being left behind that he went and joined the Templars. Great stuff!

I mean, one of the quests is a highly entertaining one about getting a companion’s love life back in order, complete with an awkward evening at a bar. The PC and an NPC wait for the companion, who ends up making the international sign for “I’ve chickened out, I can’t do this!” I laughed my ass off at the whole thing, both because it was funny and because, well, who hasn’t been in similar situations?

Also, I don’t want to spoil the second act for anyone else who hasn’t played the game, but the bit with Leandra in Act 2 was very well done and emotionally powerful for me as a player.
"

[spoiler]I did not expect that the murder quest from Act 1 would turn into such a huge deal. And finding her murdered and repurposed into a horrifying sex doll zombie abomination thing was just a hugely unexpected thing.

But I especially liked how the whole first and second act included little conversations with her and the PC where she talked about stuff and generally got involved like a mother would. It was a nice bit. She was talking about remarrying and all, and I thought that that was what was gonna happen. But instead she died. Which sucks, because I liked her.
[/spoiler]

It’s moments like those that really feel right. It’s like they finally figured out how to write characters that the player can engage with. In NWN2, there were a couple funny moments with the companions, and a couple that were slightly touching. DAO did a little better. This one nailed it (despite Anders, that worthless piece of crap). I like character driven stuff, and this game is all about the various characters: the city, the companions, the major NPCs. Plus I seriously like that the companions have lives of their own. It’s nice to visit the bar and see a couple of them hanging out, or to run into cutscenes of them talking to one another without the PC involved.

I also like that I can tell Anders what I think and not be punished for it with in game repercussions. It’s good that we can agree to disagree without him wandering off like a petulant baby.

Sure, the dungeons are hilariously repetitive. You shouldn’t do things like blatantly re-purpose caves by blocking off various routes. That’s just lazy. But I like that I can develop a feel for an area like the Wounded Coast or Sundermount. Those areas have personality, sort of. It could be better, but I can forgive a lot with a combat model like this. I’m excited for the next game, and I hope that they further develop the idea that the characters are the only thing that matters.

3260

I don’t want to get all crazy with facts, but the devs have basically cried a few times about how DA1 players didn’t like the changes and they will be working on DA3 to bring those players back.
They’ve been quite clear that they’re trying to remove what was seen as a failure in 2 and embrace more of what was liked about a previous success. So…the same idea behind every game in development with a reasonable team. Rework the bad, keep the good. Was this supposed to be surprising or indicative of writing off DA2?

But it wasn’t better selling, it isn’t the next generation in RPGs and to boot, yes, it’s very cartoonish. Facts is facts.
Opinions are opinions rather, and it’s especially laughable to quote sales numbers as a direct correlation to the quality of a game.

Correct. Might as well delete the rest of your post now!
Such eloquence. Here I half-expected some reasonable disagreement, go figure. But DA2 was cartoonish because if you say it enough times it’s true. And sales numbers dictate all as well. Oy. Never mind, I’ve ruffled feathers with bothering to frame a counter-argument, I should have just said DA1 sucked like people seemingly keep accusing me of believing and made a post of similar merit.