1961

It’s gimped compared to DAO on PC for sure, but DAO on consoles and other recent Bioware rpgs haven’t had the isometric view for some time. If you are saying its more restrictive then even those other games were, then that’s another thing. It’s been awhile since I played them, but I don’t recall being able to pull back much further, if at all, on the ME or KOTOR games.

1962

The most obvious example is if you’re trying to use an area of effect spell at a far or moderate distance. It can be quite annoying to get the targeting circle where you want it to be.

1963

Are you following me around?!?! ;-)

Aye, compared to DAO its gimped - Kotor there wasnt really any reason to use it, so I don’t compare to that. ME no reason at all either to pull back, thats a pure action rpg and does it’s thing well.

1964

There are supposed to be statistical upgrades for companions armor and I believe appearance changes as well. I can understand how it takes away from older games not being able to choose that, but on the plus side it is nice to know my party won’t ever end up looking awful in random mismatched pieces. That was something I thought was a great change from ME1 to ME2 though I was initially nervous about it and it wasn’t explored very far.

Again, I don’t get the camera complaint. It functions differently than in other Bioware games but functions it does, and well. Because I can’t have a bird’s eye view of combat I can’t plan maneuvers or see incoming enemy threats? Really? I guess I’ll hope modders can adjust this in time to satisfy those who hate it, but the demo never had any such issues for me. Wait, it’s hard to target distant enemies? How? I had more issues with terrain blocking fireball casts. Hell, it even displays the nameplates of enemies that are within a targeted cast for you.

1965

I found the isometric camera in most useful in DA:O for managing how and where to deploy spells with AOE and angling for backstabs. In redesigning the combat and relegating friendly fire to the highest difficulty level, I’m guessing Bioware feels isometric in unnecessary. However, I also used the isometric camera a lot to wall off doors and choke points with my tank characters, a situation that doesn’t really come up in the demo. I’m not sure the new game is tuned for that level of positional awareness anymore, with the greater emphasis placed on using skills and abilities more efficiently.

Overall I quite enjoyed the demo. I think the rendering style is very nice, though the blasted mudscape of the early section doesn’t exactly put the game’s best foot forward. I think the first game too often substituted graphical noise for detail. Usually it didn’t make things look more realistic, only more mottled. But it played very much like Dragon Age and I look forward to playing more!

1966

In that long Gamespot clip I linked earlier there is a point where they did a choke point attempt, though not very successfully. But it looks like it still can be done. Not as easily as the full iso view allowed it, however.

1967

You have to change the camera angle to see far away, and doing that gives you less precision if you want to target a specific point on the ground, especially when there are fair amount of npcs in that area.

1968

I think we were just very lucky that with Dragon Age:Origins, they were willing to code two different cameras (and to some extent, two different styles of combat), one for the PC and one for console versions. It never made any financial sense, and you got the feeling the PC only got its own isometric view because the developers were so passionate about that style of tactical gameplay.

Now they are being more sensible. Just make the PC version like the console version. Fewer complications, quicker development, bigger profits. My guess is that many at Bioware are also disappointed that the isometric view is gone too. But they comfort themselves by diving into a big pool of money.

Tony

1969

I wish they still made roleplaying games like they used to. These days it’s all big choices and visceral combat.

1970

That’s part of the challenge!

1971

There is plenty of dragons in Dragon Ages 2, I am sure of thats!

Take the new approach of encounter design for example. BioWare decided that in order for a player to feel heroic, there should be a bunch of cannon fodders padding the key mobs. And I understand that, as it is pretty awesome see a lot of things exploding. To fulfill that requirement, every encounter in the game is designed in such way that weaker mobs are continuously flowing into the field as the fight goes on. However, almost as if the designers have not tested the encounters themselves, this approach breaks numerous other parts of the game. Awkward mob entries due to level designs built without the new approach in mind. Restricting camera angles that do not support the large area it now needs to cover. The combination of these flaws nullifies the use of tactical positioning, making one of the game’s core mechanics and its related abilities irrelevant.

These is nonsense. To say that you cannot have tactical positionings because the mobs is coming too fast is silly, and in facts it makes tactical positioning even more importants. Just because someone can survive against the monsters for 5 seconds doesn’t not mean that he cannot fail to not live for 10 seconds. Nor do restrictivist camera angel mean you cannot see the battel field. If you cannot live without a top-down view, go play an RTSes.

I am not even going to go into DLC, game-balancing issues and all that jazz, as these problems exist in Dragon Age too. Let’s just say I found some easy exploitations(imaginary scenario or not) 15min into the game.

So don’t do that then.

1972

Thats some mighty good advice there Hongs - Only, we don’t want it. We want the same level of difference in gameplay between the console and the pc version, that we had in DA:O - and it simply isn’t there.

There is plenty of dragons in Dragon Ages 2, I am sure of thats!
Which, wasn’t at all what he said.

These is nonsense. To say that you cannot have tactical positionings because the mobs is coming too fast is silly, and in facts it makes tactical positioning even more importants. Just because someone can survive against the monsters for 5 seconds doesn’t not mean that he cannot fail to not live for 10 seconds. Nor do restrictivist camera angel mean you cannot see the battel field. If you cannot live without a top-down view, go play an RTSes.

It’s not nonsense because you say it is - and it doesn’t make tactical positioning more important in any way at all. Basically, it boils down to that the game has become a lot more of an action game, and seems to do that quite well.

As for your comment about the camera angel (giggles), its another of the things that set the DA:O PC version apart from the more action-like console version.

It’s become clear what direction the franchise has taken through the demo, and thats what people are complaining about.

You saying they should go play an RTS is just simply trolling and has no relevance at all.

1973

Actually, we want a game that provides a compelling experience. We want a game that puts you in the shoes (or head) of Hawke and lets we act like we are the people that matter. We do not consider tactical minutiae to be a particularly important part of the experience.

Who is we, again?

It’s not nonsense because you say it is - and it doesn’t make tactical positioning more important in any way at all. Basically, it boils down to that the game has become a lot more of an action game, and seems to do that quite well.

As for your comment about the camera angel (giggles), its another of the things that set the DA:O PC version apart from the more action-like console version.

It’s become clear what direction the franchise has taken through the demo, and thats what people are complaining about.

Yes, it’s a good sign. Ppl will always complain about something. If they are complaining about this, then it means they are not complaining about bugginess, or storyline, or graphics, or dialogue, or difficulty, or a million other things.

You saying they should go play an RTS is just simply trolling and has no relevance at all.

We consider the lack of a top-down angle to be the smallest of things to complain about, considering how many other games made in the last 10 years have managed to survive without it. If offline strategising and maneuvering playing pieces is that important to you, we have recommended a genre that is designed around the concept.

1974

“We” as in those that talk about the specific areas mentioned in the post - But I like your “We” as well!

I like your idea for a game, it sounds nice - but sequels have a way of building on what came before, trying to cater to mostly the same audience that found the first game compelling.

We consider the lack of a top-down angle to be the smallest of things to complain about, considering how many other games made in the last 10 years have managed to survive without it. If offline strategising and maneuvering playing pieces is that important to you, we have recommended a genre that is designed around the concept.

Basically, I think it all boils down to that there were two major audiences in the previous DA, the console and the PC crowd, which had vastly different perspectives (Also in the game, camera-wise).

The console crowd is happy with the game, since it seems very much the same, the pc crowd has some that are not as happy, since it’s diverting away from what made DA:O what it is.

There was a reason many choose to buy the game on pc, and not console, besides not having a console - It was that it seemed to be the gamestyle they want the most. When that gamestyle isn’t there anymore, well - here we stand…at the raggety edge.

Yes, it’s a good sign. Ppl will always complain about something. If they are complaining about this, then it means they are not complaining about bugginess, or storyline, or graphics, or dialogue, or difficulty, or a million other things.

Oh, I’m sure the game will be very well done - this is Bioware after all.

1975

No trolling here, but I really can’t understand what the complaints about the camera are;
I scroll closer or further away depending on how many enemies I’m fighting; sure, it’s easier to have a more tactical perspective of the battlefield when you are playing a ranged because, well, you aren’t up to your ears in enemies, but still, I see no problem with the camera at all.

As for positioning, same thing; enemies start running towards me I pause, assign positions and either engage them first or wait for the to get to me, I pause again and assign attacks, unpaused and let it roll.

Really, the only difference I notice between DA2 and DA1 is that back in DA1, in most occasions, you hardly ever needed to pause besides boss battles and some more tricky mass enemy fights and in DA2 it seems you do need to pause and, gasp!, think more tactically.

It does feel like your character as well as the enemies have much more mobility and move much faster but I don’t consider that a negative, it’s actually more fun for me than the slow moving clunkiness of DA1 and maybe, just maybe, my 2 wield warrior (we can still do dual wield warriors, right?) will actually play like a Kratos-looking killing machine instead of a slow moving engine of doom.

1976

I saw what you did there! (And I liked the computer game store nerd in ME2 too).

Well, I’m on a console so I’m copacetic about all this DA2 stuff.

I’m playing NWN2 now (PC) and I’m guessing the top-down Exploration or Strategy camera modes are a great deal like what computer gamers dealt with in DA:O. But I find myself constantly going back to Character view, even in combat, and I’m managing just fine on Hardcore.

I just like the visual detailing and the “being there” feel rather than the “beardy-chin stroking from on high” feel. That’s playing on hardcore. I think DA:O’s conditioned me so this is how I play now. Baldur’s Gate was a long time ago…

Scout, set up a plan before contact, then pause as needed during the fighting to toggle between characters. Voila. Tactics.

So while I’m sorta siding with Hong here I should also point out he’s, as Jon Stewart would say, “not helping” with his approach to the discussion.

1977

/googles copacetic

For what its worth I haven’t played the demo yet, I preordered the game when I saw a good price about a month ago, so I want the full impact of playing it unspoiled.

Not sure I’ll get to play it for a couple of months though. There really are tons of interesting games coming out in the next month or 2. Easter is the new Christmas.

Tony

1978

I can put up with the lack of top down camera if they’d let you detach it from the characters. That makes it easy to quickly position them in a certain spot instead of jumping back and forth.

Close-up cameras force the player to look at your expensive animation and artwork instead of playing more efficiently from high up. That’s fine. But there’s no reason to require that it be attached. Software engineering nerds just think they know better than their customers. It’s their way or the highway. That kind of character flaw is something we need to work around if we want to play videogames.

Like I said before, maybe someone will hack it in for us.

1979

There is a reason. It’s because there are four characters present, and no omniscient overseer. I would have thought that was more, not less, tactical. When you tie the camera to units in Total War, is that wrong? Parts of the battle are out of sight… and why wouldn’t they be?

1980

I played NWN2 like that a fair bit also. The difference between that and the PC version of DA:O (which I also mostly played from over-the-shoulder), though, is that NWN2 will let you scroll away from your characters in the more top down camera modes, thus giving a useful overview of the battlefield and making it much easier to target some sorts of spells (particularly AoE), while DA:O had a tight leash tying you to your characters so while the top down view gives some useful perspective on things on the periphery of the over the shoulder camera’s view and relative positioning, I actually found it easier to target spells in over-the-shoulder, which was REALLY annoying. :P