Dwarf Fortress successors comparison thread

I never could get into Dwarf Fortress due to the beyond-awful UI. I always was intrigued by what it was trying to do, however. Now that there are several next-generation implementations of the idea, how do they stack up to one another? The thread about Timber and Stone was what got me thinking about this. I would especially appreciate the input of people who’ve played more than one of these and can thus make direct comparisons.

What are the various ones? I know Gnomoria, Towns, and Timber and Stone, but are there other major ones?

Which one(s) are the most feature-complete? Endless Space has taught me that I’m not that interested in partially-completed strategy games.

Non-objectively, which one(s) are the most fun?

I’m afraid I can’t be of much help here, but thank you for this thread. I’m in the same boat and I’m going to watch with interest.

Only thing I can add is Goblin Camp, but that was also not nearly complete when I played over the past summer.

I’ve also been searching for a dwarf fortress successor. Towns is java and T&S is unity so those are out. What’s gnomoria written in?

Why no java or unity games?

Skipping over games because of the underlying engine/language is a bit silly, unless you for some reason have a system which is incapable of using them.

From what I know of the alternatives currently out, none are as feature-complete as DF. Gnomoria seems to be getting close, and Timber&Stone should be a bit closer once he does the ‘difficulty’ pass. It depends largely on what you define as ‘feature complete’ though. DF, per the author himself, is still 15-18 years away from being complete, so… :)

For $8, Gnomoria seems like a win even if not yet ‘done’. T&S at $20 is a touch more wait-and-see.

I’m stuck with java 1.5 for work reasons and yes I know you can have different versions simultaneously, it’s just not worth the hassle and risk.

I’ve played several unity games lately and they’ve all been unstable on both my machines (Endless Space, Dungeonland, and Kentucky Route Zero) so I’m avoiding any unity games if I can. It could just be these games and not the engine but oh well, there’s plenty of alternatives.

It looks like gnomoria is a custom engine so I’m on my way to buy it now.

If you are stuck on Java 1.5 because of work, the associated IT department is failing you. That’s like saying the game has to work in Windows 98

To be fair, T&S is the youngest and henceforth the least mature. Trouble with T&S though, is that 80K was raised before it was started, and should be a lot more mature than it is.

Seems to me Gnomoria, Towns, and DF all had a similar development process, closer to how Minecraft was developed - (alpha purchase model). I don’t think any of them have quite gotten to capture the real allure of DF - though that may not have been their goal.

I’ve been having a lot of fun with Gnomoria. It has much of what makes DF fun (indirect minion management, digging and building, farming, animal husbandry, quite a bit of crafting, enemies that can come from above and below, and a real challenge and distinct possibility of death through external threats or even just starvation and neglect).

That said, I offer these caveats and comparisons to DF:

  1. Gnomoria still has a few rough-around-the-edges beta issues/bugs/behavior oddities (but so does Dwarf Fortress)
    (e.g., after the last goblin attack, my miners apparently dropped their pickaxes and now they’re refusing to go pick them up from the storage crate ~15 steps away from where they’re idling in my great hall).

  2. It’s still missing a ton of features vs. Dwarf Fortress (at the top of my list are some special constructions, like drawbridges and arrow-slit fortifications, also guard dogs) :-)

  3. It uses a minecraft-style monsters-spawn-in-the-dark mechanic for layers below -8 (or something like that–I really dislike this approach and you can read my ranting about it in the Gnomoria thread if you’re so inclined).

  4. It’s a far less ‘fleshed out’ world than Dwarf Fortress, which robs the game of some of DF’s charms (e.g., Gnomes lack personal bios and likes/dislikes; AFAIK, there are no wall carvings and there’s no world history or system of recording events that could be carved into the walls anyway; caravans seem to follow a standard generic template rather than carrying variety that stems from an ‘outerworld’ simulation; there are vastly fewer types of animals and, AFAIK, no mega beasts; also, AFAIK, Gnomoria lacks the infamous ‘moods’ that lead dwarves to create works of art or die trying).

  5. Despite the fairly intuitive and generally powerful UI, it lacks a number of interface/control features that DF uses (e.g., to shelter your gnomes indoors in times of danger and to schedule military activity)

  6. UI complexity aside, Gnomoria’s pacing/difficulty curve actually seems steeper to me than Dwarf Fortress (Gnomoria has potentially deadly goblins showing up in your first summer–which is long before you’re likely to have a competent military, traps, or even the metal smithing capacity to arm and armor them–and unlike older versions of DF, Gnomoria’s villains can break through doors).

  7. From what I’ve seen so far, Gnomoria may not have any running water (e.g., rivers or waterfalls). It does have water, and that water does seem to follow some basic physics (and it can accumulate from rain, which is neat), but I’ve started a number of settlements in areas that looked** like they were eroded by–and should have–some sort of river headed down a slope. In each case, however, the water is merely pooled in a stagnant lake at the bottom.

**You can preview maps before you load them. This is a great feature. It doesn’t show you everything on the map and you can’t scroll up and down, but it shows the general topography and flora. I should also mention that Gnomoria has added (in the last few months) a great suite of advanced options for world gen. Adjusting cliff steepness, height, and bumpiness can be very powerful. Likewise, the ability to re-center your settlement is interesting too, but I had to experiment with it myself because there seems to be little/no documentation of its use online. Which brings me to my last wrinkle:

  1. At the basic/beginning stages, Gnomoria is easier to get into than DF because of its simple interface (which is still improving with updates). However, I’ve been amazed at how little documentation there is for Gnomoria. The online wiki is very sparse, and in some places it seems outdated or inaccurate. Ironically, DF may have an advantage here because its great fanbase have written a ton of guides and documented most features in great detail on the DF wiki.

Has there ever been an esitmate as to DF sales over the years? It the author still working on it full time?

Game’s still being worked on full time, though the last release was June 2012. Here’s his most recent funding report which is pretty average. As expected, he gets a spike when he releases new versions. The Bay 12 Games Report, April 1st, 2013

And Dwarf Fortress “Successor” is blasphemy when none of these games come close to Dorf Fort. Blasphemy I tell you.

The only reason why these other games exist is laziness.

Instead DF future development depends on whether or not Today One gets head out of the ass. It’s more than a year he works on stuff that is pretty much pointless. The fact that the program has no focus means that years of work can pretty much go down in the gutter.

At least he’s working on combat now. But a new release is months away, and it will probably need a lot more time to fix all the stuff it will break.

Gnomoria is written in C#, I think.

If you want a “DF-lite” (aka a gateway drug to DF) then Gnomoria is probably the best choice. If you’re more interesting in the building/creative features, then Towns (more decorative items) or T&S (better graphics) are probably better choices.

Towns shares fundamental mechanics but focuses more on supporting heroes to delve deeper and deeper underground. I had a hard time getting into Towns because the heroes system felt shallow and underdeveloped, and it lacked progression via individual stats and job levels. It has probably improved since I last played. They did recently add “buried” towns that are uncovered as you mine, which sounds really cool.

I played a little Timber and Stone over the weekend. It is by far the best looking game of the genre, but it’s also the roughest of the three. It’s very playable, but you’ll spend a lot of time micromanaging to make up for AI issues and the lack of a priority system. There is also a lot of randomness in T&S right now (e.g. 1-shots, armor breaking, starting professions) that feels like it’s a placeholder for more complex systems.

What are the various ones? I know Gnomoria, Towns, and Timber and Stone, but are there other major ones?

Folk Tale looks fantastic but isn’t publically playable (beta signups are available).

Castle Story is about organizing your little yellow men to build and defend castles floating islands. The last time I looked at this, it was more of a tech demo than a game though.

edit: Also, Banished, although that’s more sim and less siege.

I am the IT department but this home brewed application was written long before me and the administration won’t pay to update/replace it. And yes, I do still have users stuck on 98 because of some other applications.

I am really enjoying gnomoria so far. I put it on peaceful so hopefully that means no enemies.

Gonna cast my lot with the “None of these games count because they don’t hold a candle to DF” people. Thanks. :P

Gnomoria is building out nicely, and the interface works for a lot more people than DF. There will always be a group that kind of looks down at games that are not DF and the people who play those games, but I think the others have a lot to offer. I am throwing my hat in with Gnomoria which is not complete of course, and does have a pretty steep learning curve for that first year and even second, but it also has difficulty options available too. For example, you can turn off the in the dark spawning.

I couldn’t get into Towns, and I believe Goblin Camp was abandoned by the creator I thought.

Gnomoria uses XNA.

This is probably my favorite genre of games. If you are intrigued by the genre learn DF. There are a ton of awesome tutorials including a ¥FANTASTIC¥ ebook by one our very own. Whenever I play any of the “clones” I always end up generating a new world in DF and find it much more enjoyable. There just isn’t enough stuff or complexity in the other games. It becomes way to boring too fast.

My current fort has almost finished its outer all marble block wall (10 tiles in from map edge) surrounded by a golden road 10 tiles wide to the map edge funneling into what will be a grand entrance/kill zone. The other games just lack any meaningful distinguishing features you can build to make each fort a unique playthrough.

Also fuck necromancer ambushers. Sneaking around my partially built walls animating turkey carcasses, yak heads, and dog skin.

What about a Dwarf Fortress mod that totally transforms it into something that’s usable and visually appealing to those of us that can’t see through ASCII properly? Maybe that’s the best option of there’s no spiritual successor even on the radar? Gnomoria looks cool though.

This has been the Holy Grail of sorts for the longest time but no one seems to be able to make it. I suspect it’s because DF is quite complex, and further, Toady would break it as soon as he releases a new version. It’s not just about building a graphical interface apparently.