To weigh in here: yes, the UI looks terrible, and yes it is inconsistent as all hell. But after a few hours of playing you will have learnt it. It’s not some ridiculous learning curve. It’s just very ugly!
(Well, you’ll never remember which of the FOUR pairs of scroll keys scrolls each interface…)
Wolff
3022
Complaints about the DF UI in regards to control I can understand - but its not impossible or very hard to learn - its just very different. Most UI are “intuitive” because we’ve had practice in them before, FPS or RTS most of the time is really easy to pick up and play for gamers for nongamers it can be overwhelming.
Complaints about the gameplay or information the UI gives you in DF I can really get behind. Shit just doesn’t work alot of the time. Why isn’t my marksdwarf ever firing OH its because he has a sock in his left hand that I won’t know is the problem unless I’ve read through forum posts. Why are half my axe dwarfs not using the training axes I’ve assigned them and are gleefully killing half my military?
Bugs or broken gameplay is always what gets me to stop playing DF not the UI.
Just to make sure everything is out in the open; I’m ok with the DF interface. I don’t like it but its not that big a deal. I’m a good typist and actually appreciate a UI that allows me to use that skill to efficiently control things as opposed to some halfway mode where one hand is on the mouse but the other hand has to move all over the keyboard because there are many commands needing keys. Or a generally slow mouse+menu system.
However that’s really beside the point. What I can’t understand is the tone that people take with DF (and Minecraft too) that the creator of the game needs to change something in a specific way. I can see saying such a thing in a wishing way; Asus should make a version of the EP121 that costs the same but has a 7+ hour battery life. But that’s not the tone that comes across. Instead its a tone of entitlement Are you all Toady’s heirs? If not why do you care whether he might be able to make more money with a better UI?
Putting it another way; I’ve never met anyone why thinks they should be able to tell an author to change a book. Instead if they find the good doesn’t outweigh the bad they throw it down and move on.
The other thing is, while you are learning the game, many of the systems are quite separate.
Starting for the first time in a calm area? You’ll never even need to go into the military screen.
Don’t have sand in the map? Don’t need to worry about the economics of glass and related products.
Figured out how to farm Plump Helmets and Brew beer? Pretty much don’t need to worry about any other food mechanic.
etc, etc. You’ll have plenty of failed/abandoned fortresses under your belt before you really need to dig into everything on offer. Then, once you do, many of the idiosyncrasies of the interface will be almost second nature to you.
Wolff
3025
For me it stems from the fact that DF almost hits my gaming G-Spot, but instead is jabbing its dirty crusty fingers into my thigh. Not really anything out there like it, games that come close are generally way to easy or are very linear. ie- In this mission you have unlocked barracks to create sword men!
Well, I suppose what will happen is that Terraria 2 or Minecraft 3 will start integrating dwarfbots, which will rapidly evolve in interesting behaviors. Then you’ll be able to point at them and tell them what to do (yeah, let’s get some Kinect in there, why not), and they’ll start doing it. And then the shit will hit the fan, and you’ll be right there in the middle of it. On that day many fucks will be given.
I know this thread has gone through this exact same “The UI sucks” -> “You’re a n00b!” -> “He could make more money!” -> “So what?” -> “It’s getting worse” -> “It’s not that bad” loop approximately 1,000 times. It’s part of the Zen of Dwarf Fortress at this point. I guess the reason I can’t help beating the horse once a year or so is that Dwarf Fortress always produced such good stories. I wanted some of that action. I still do! But it’s hidden behind an interface that literally offends me as a professional programmer. He has a right to do it how he likes, and I have a right to my reaction to it, which is terrible.
So I very much want someone to take all that simulation richness and put it in an immediately accessible world. Kinect + Minecraft + Dwarf Fortress’s core simulation engine = the game to end all games. Dwarf Fortress is definitely a step towards the Ultimate Game… I just wish it would get here a bit quicker.
But DF’s influence on Minecraft and Terraria is, I suppose, pretty much the ideal outcome: richer simulation yields better stories and more fun. Dungeons of Dredmor might also be an example.
Edit: Holy shit. That really is a good idea. Minecraft + Kinect + dwarfbots you can literally order around. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I can figure it out, I just don’t think it’s an effective use of my time. If that’s what he wants, great, but there’s a large set of people like myself who don’t want to play games with the metaphorical equivalent of stone age tools. I suppose if I completely ran out of every game I might want to play ever, yeah, it might have a positive fun return-on-investment. As it is, however, there’s no shortage of fun interesting strategy games that I’d rather play.
Which is exasperating, as he has a great world simulator in there.
What’s with you and Kinect?
I was a fresh-out-of-school newbie programmer in 1990, working for Autodesk in their Advanced Technology Group, back when Jaron Lanier and Rudy Rucker hung out there regularly. So I’ve been waiting for this immersive shit for a couple of decades now, and it’s finally here. I just genuinely enjoy Kinect (Child of Eden = pure win), and hacking it is quite entertaining.
Who knows, maybe someone will nail the VR glasses problem soon too. And once they do, I want the most interesting possible space to be in. Dwarf Fortress’s utter and inevitable emergent calamity really pretty much fits the bill.
rezaf
3030
Kinect for playing a strategy game? A COMPLEX strategy game?
Seriously?
There’s lots of people here who say PCs suck because “I’d rather play games sitting on my comfy couch in the living room”, and you want people to look like this when playing a game?
rezaf
By way of metafilter, DF hits the big time in NYT coverage.
RepoMan
3032
OK, I’ll shut up about Tarn from now on.
Quaro
3033
WOW. Just, wow. Congrats to Toady! Not a bad article.
I hope he stays healthy, that diet and sleep schedule is going to wear him down.
So strange to see real depths of the internet illuminated by the mainstream press.
The article is very good and highlights how the genius and problems within DF both stem directly from the personality of it’s creator.
Oh that explains why the tutorial traffic is up a lot.
The diet maybe, but his sleep schedule is fine. Some of us function at our best in the twilight hours.
From the sidebar explaining what the ASCII characters mean:
Dwarves in a meeting hall that has an engraved floor. On the north wall is a series of detailed engravings. There is also a cow in the room.
Only a Dwarf Fortress fan could make a non sequitur that sounds exactly like a procedurally generated description in the game!
A game by an autistic for the autistic!
Teiman
3040
A much easier way to expand Dwarf Fortress, would be to detach interface from “engine”, then have more than one ‘director’ playing in a single game. Maybe even have a good network protocol, so can played from different countries. A multiplayer dwarf fortress.
