I see. And I wasn’t trying to offend with my first comment - to me, your original comment just sounded like one of those traditional “evolution means improvement” misconceptions many people seem to have.

You didn’t offend at all and I’m glad I managed to explain my point better. :)

I’m pretty sure it’s OK. We’ve already talked the latest round of hype into the ground. Also, this is weirdly entertaining. Or entertainingly weird. Probably both really.

I’ll try to be brief: human change is gradual, on the scale of millions of years; however, the average phenotype, basically how each one of us looks from skin tone to hair type and how hirsute we are, is influenced by our genetic ancestors and can change radically in just a few generations.

Gradual, yes. But nowhere near that gradual. Those who, unlike me, actually know what they’re talking about, are very confident our species isn’t even 0.3 million years old.

Now, in human evolution the main forces for evolutionary change are adaptation to environment - survival (aka fitness) - reproduction; however, modern humans are tricky when compared to other animals because while we can provide in a rather straightforward manner for our survival (feeding and shelter) we are highly variable in our reproductive behaviour (from not reproducing at all to having multiple partners, etc).

But as you point out, we’re not talking about the evolution of a species as a whole, we’re talking about a specific, rare trait that quite likely compromises the ability to find a mate for those who exhibit it.

The species doesn’t need to enter an organised breeding plan to get rid of it. You only need the very few people who have the opportunity to pass along the trait, to stop doing it. And without meaning to impose my tastes on everyone else, I’m reasonably confident most people with the opportunity to have little furball babies, decline.

There’s probably a few who won’t pass up the opportunity. A very few might even be seeking it out specifically. So it’s not likely to vanish in a single generation. But in a world where people as a rule don’t want to have furball babies, it won’t take many generations before the trait is so rare that even those who’d want to pass it on, won’t have the chance. At which point it will be gone. That’s of course assuming the trait is as straightforward as that. I don’t know & I’m afraid I’ll have nightmares if I look it up. But given that assumption it won’t take thousands of generations before the trait is gone. It’s a guess, but 50 sounds way more likely.

The evolution of a species can be very slow, but it doesn’t have to be. Whether it is or not depends greatly on the sizes and relative isolation of groups of the species. The severity of the pressures affecting them is just one collection of factors, and not necessarily the strongest one.

Stuff like horse & dog breeding offer nice examples.

As mentioned, I my understanding of the subject is extremely basic and very limited. So apologies if I just said a bunch of stuff you already know, or know better than. But you really don’t give the impression that you know more about the subject than I do.

Actually no, we were talking about people being hairy vs non hairy, we simply misused the term hirsutism; the discussion was never about a rare trait, it was simply about evolution and/or phenotypical expression.

Also, regarding your horses and dogs comment, (basically all domesticated animals really) that’s animal eugenics; besides some experiments in the past, humans never really got into the "let’s breed ourselves blonde/tall/yellow/whatever because it is abhorrent to most of us and unless humanity as a whole slips into a totalitarian dystopia I don’t see it happening, ever. And “bad” genes can’t simply be removed from the gene pool (human or animal) because a) we can’t force people to not breed b) certain mutation occur without predisposition c) homozygosity (aka inbreeding) triggers in and tend to screw the best laid out breeding plans (why some cattle breeds, purportedly “pure blooded”, end up suffering from very nasty mutations) due to a lack of variety in the gene pool.
Also, consider how so many dog breeds have associated genetic diseases, brought on by extreme homozygosity; if it was possible to breed out the bad genes the breeders surely would have done it by now.

So apologies if I just said a bunch of stuff you already know, or know better than. But you really don’t give the impression that you know more about the subject than I do.

It’s a friendly discussion and as such you don’t need to apologize; I do believe however that you didn’t read all my posts and/or links. Every single comment i’ve made I’ve tried to present in a simple and straightforward way and even linking reputable articles, but hey, if even so, if I don’t give the impression that I know more than you, why should I even bother trying to present a reasonable argument?:)

I don’t want to dive into this whole discussion, because I was pointed here out of the blue by someone that knows that I’m a geneticist. I’d just like to say that it’s quite possible for breeders to “get rid of” predispositions to disease. There are a few things that make this harder:

  1. Desired phenotypes (coat color, etc) appear close to time of birth, so generation time is low compared to traits like tendency for hip displasia, but one could still select for/against these traits, it’s just a longer process where you continue breeding, then “get rid of” the animals whos parents exhibit the trait of interest you want to get rid of. Nasty, but quite possible.

  2. Most dog breeders don’t give a fuck how healthy their dogs is, they just want to win best of show. If the dog keels over a year later, that’s not their problem.

But what are your thoughts on dual-wielding?

Dual-wielding show dogs never ends well.

I’ve got to disagree. My first dog is proficient at dual wielding both katanas and auto-shotguns. My other dog can only use a single weapon at a time, and when they spar she’s almost always the loser, so it’s obvious that dual wielding confurs a strong selective advantage.

I hate you so much.

I prefer to believe it is an intelligent design.

And here I thought that the delicious Scotch Ales I’ve been enjoying couldn’t be topped. Thank you gentlemen.

This thread got awesome.

invites DoomMunky to join me in the drunk thread soon if I don’t fall asleep

Heyo!

Humans being millions of years old. Dinosaurs with breasts. Show dogs dual-wielding swords. Hopefully the game is as interesting as this thread is.

No, it’s a person dual-wielding show dogs. Your way would just be silly!

I hope modders adds a cow race to the game. I want to moo and not accept shit from anyone.

If this isn’t moded into Skyrim, the world will be a sad place.

Edit: Dual Wielding Dachshunds… … Imagine the possibilities.
Edit2: Aha! Now I recall… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihuDwkL9_Ng

Those Skyrim shots are awesome, but it certainly illustrates where next-next-gen consoles will be able to shine: Procedural hair. The fur on the face of that catdude looks like it’s encased in plastic.

http://www.justpushstart.com/2011/08/13/new-skyrim-details-emerge/

-Joinable Factions: Rebels with branching path quests (Stormcloaks) and Riverwood Tavern Warrior Clan.
-Pickpocket skill provides greater RP opportunities and much more realistic thievery for thieves.
-Myriad options for face-paint.
-Even minor NPCs have much more complexity and depth compared with Oblivion.
-Character Generation remembers your settings when switching between races
-You can persuade various random NPCs to accompany you and they feel like fleshed out, interesting companions.
-There are six different stages to crafting items. The first two are: Refining crude ore and Assembling materials.
-More realistic alchemy labs.
-In addition to alchemy ingredients there are also reagents.
-Some spells can be learned by reading spell tomes, while others can be bought from merchants.
-Hand to Hand attacks have a much improved gravity and physicality.
-There are more ways to complete quests.
-Lockpicking mini-game is improved.
-There are bards in the game.
-You can choose not to spend perk points each level, and hold onto them instead.
-During Character Generation you can add laugh lines to your character.
-There are dozens of sliders for character creation.
-Aurora Borealis is confirmed.
-You can have animal companions.
-Bosmer “Animal Allies” Racial Ability confirmed.
-NPCs can throw rocks if they are on a bridge above you
-Glow Worms confirmed.
-Killable Bees and insects confirmed (you can harvest bees from beehives).
-Fast Travel costs money.
-Perks do not stop at level 50.
-There are more types of poison.
-Bosmer are immune to most types of poison.

Nice stuff. My older daughter is going to squee in delight if she can have a wolf pet follow her around I’m sure. Not sure what the throwing rocks thing is all about…

Killable bees? Myriad options for face-paint? NPCs throwing rocks at you from bridges?

Yes, that’s just what Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena were missing…