Electric cars, hybrids, and related vehicles

True, still in the process off getting from fringe to mainstream i can see lots of issues for all this, i suspect not everyone will have the ability to have a charger at home (like if they live in flats like in most cities (where EV’s are needed the most!)). We’ll all muddle through i suspect, with lots of interference from the petrol/car industry on route!

And some news on EV sales in europe zone:

‘Volvo and Renault lead way as electric car sales double in EU’:

New models helped sales of electric cars in the European Union double in 2013, but the zero-emission vehicles still only account for one in every 250 new cars sold.

Electric cars are a crucial part of government policies tackling both air pollution and climate change, but car manufacturers have lobbied hard against rules to cut emissions.

Almost 50,000 plug-in vehicles were sold in 2013, up from 22,000 in 2012, with the surge lead by three models that sold about 8,000 each, according to an analysis of official data by the Transport & Environment (T&E) campaign group.

The three new models dominating sales were Renault’s Zoe, costing from £14,000 after a £5,000 UK government subsidy; Mitsubishi’s Outlander costing £28,250 after subsidy, and Volvo’s V60 plug-in, priced from £44,275 after subsidy.

“Electric cars are growing strongly, but at the same time the simple truth is that they are too expensive for most people to consider,” said T&E’s Greg Archer. “But the price will come down over time and you will see this technology start to compete. This is a revolution and it will take time to happen. The hype that surrounded electric vehicles back in 2010 was never going to be delivered.”

So, I mentioned in the first post of this thread that there was a crazy-expensive hybrid sports car, the Panamera S e Hybrid. I bought one. Took delivery yesterday, drove it a bit today.

The dealer delivered it to me with the battery completely empty. This didn’t really surprise me - I don’t think they understand the car at all. When I test drove one, they didn’t have that one charged either. I charged it before taking it anywhere.

One thing I thought was a bit weird and silly is that the car doesn’t have an analog speedometer. There’s a digital one below the central tachometer, but in the #2 place, where you’d normally see a speedometer, is a power meter. It seemed frivolous to lose a significant instrument for this.

After driving the car today, I realized this is the electric power’s equivalent of the tach, and thus it is important, if you’re trying at all to maximize efficiency. In e-Power mode the car is pure electric until the power meter gets over 25%, the green zone, and then the gas engine turns on. It’s very easy to do this in ordinary driving. The EPA includes some gas usage in the PSeH’s electric-mode MPGe, and I now understand why - if you’re not keeping an eye on the power meter, you’re going to use gas.

Similarly, if you’re braking, the meter tells you how hard you can press the brakes and recapture energy. Go beyond the bottom of the “charge” zone, and you’re using the real brake pads, not the electric engine braking to generate power.

I had envisioned staying in completely electric mode for routine driving, only reserving the full engine power for times when I really wanted acceleration. I don’t think that’s going to happen. The electric is very nice for 0-5 MPH, giving real authority from a standing stop in a way that usually requires a lot of gas. It’s not so nice above about 15-20 MPH. I experimented with pegging the power meter at 25%, getting maximum acceleration from pure electric, and getting up to 35-40 MPH is definitely slower than I find acceptable. This is a heavy car (4600 lbs), and the 95 HP of the electric motor isn’t enough for my taste.

This isn’t to say the car is slow. If you’re using gas and electric, it’s seriously fast. If I’m not going for efficiency, 50 MPH arrives so effortlessly I’m not even sure how I got there. Nor it it particularly inefficient even if you’re messing about with high acceleration. Today’s city-driving trip reported 36.8 MPG according to the car, but that doesn’t include the electricity used. By my estimate, I used 0.24 gallons and 4 kWh to travel 8.7 miles, which works out to about 25 MPG. Which isn’t nearly Prius numbers, but this isn’t a Prius. My wife’s Cayman S gets maybe 14 MPG on the same trip, it’s 65% of the weight of the Panamera, and the power experience is similar.

I’m still trying to get a feel for the car. It has an 8-speed automatic transmission, but you can override the transmission’s shifting decisions manually. There’s also a full manual mode, where transmission won’t shift until you tell it to. I started out in full manual, because I’ve been driving a 6-speed stick for 16 years, and I wanted to retain that part of the sports car feel.

It didn’t work out at all. The issue is that the engine revs up to 6000 RPM insanely fast in first gear. I apply the throttle and BAM, it’s instantly time to shift. Further, shifting isn’t instant, and I found myself double-tapping the shift paddle, going from 1st to 3rd in my urgency to drop the RPMs. So I’m reluctantly letting the transmission do its own thing.

The police were out in force today. I saw an officer on foot ambush the car in front of me, stepping out from cover, tagging them with a radar gun, and then wave them over. I noticed an unmarked car tailing me, and shortly afterward he blipped his siren at me. I thought I’d gotten nailed even though I was being careful, but it turned out he just wanted to tell me that my gas cap was open. Of course it wasn’t actually a gas cap, it was the cap for the electric charging port. I’d forgotten to close it this morning.

My main complaint about the car is that is suffers from serious tunnel vision to the rear. The rear hatch looks like an expanse of glass, but it’s pretty far away from the driver, and visibility through the rear passenger windows is poor. I’m quite grateful it has a reverse camera. I also sprung for a blind spot warning system, which supposedly blinks a warning if it detects a car immediately to your side, but I haven’t noticed it doing anything yet.

Nice car! Congrats. Good to choose a more efficient car vs others in its class. Please report back your highway and city fuel economy and any issues that come up. On a Saturday morning you should try hypermiling to death just to see your max electric range. I’d be curious.

That is a nice looking car. It is big and heavy enough for the electric motor to be mostly for fun, but as you found out you can use it in some situations, just not as much as you wanted. It would be seriously great to have a hybrid that just worked 100% electric for inner city driving (0-50mph), than gave you the peace of mind for longer petrol distances and faster speeds.

Yeah, it’s pretty heavy, and that’s a concern. However, that wasn’t a point I could use to decided between the Tesla model S and the Panamera, because the Model S is also 4600 pounds. Much of which is battery - I can’t find any concrete figures, but I see a lot of estimates that it’s in the 1000 lb range.

My original plan was to use a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure real from-the-plug power usage, as part of reporting what the real MPGe and MPG figures are. Now I’m thinking that’s a bad idea, because the charger draws a full 15 amps, and further research has shown other electric car enthusiasts have tried measuring power draw with a Kill-A-Watt and had bad things happen to the meter. As in, overheating and melting.

Apparently the proper solution is to use a house meter on a dedicated circuit. Those are designed for 100+ amp loads. However, while surplus ones aren’t that expensive, doing that level of wiring is a bit beyond my comfort zone. It’s not complicated, but it’s easy enough to do something that really isn’t up to safe standards. If I end up getting a 220volt socket, I’ll ask about installing a meter at the same time.

I’m still debating the 220 volt outlet. I don’t think I really need the speed, but I understand they’re about 20% more efficient for charging electric cars.

I took another drive today, this time sticking strictly to electric. Not only is this kind of slow, it has a problem with hills. I’ve got a fairly steep grade near my house. The car was at 20 MPH when I hit the hill, and stayed there until I reached the top. On the other hand, I had no trouble keeping up with traffic if I was behind other cars. So “slow” by my standards is fairly normal for most traffic. It was when I was first off the line at a stoplight that it felt slow.

I made it 13.6 miles in city driving until the battery reached 20% and the gas engine kicked in. The indicated range with a full charge was 14 miles, so that’s entirely consistent, at least for start-stop city driving. The question is, how much energy was that, really? I’ve read that the usable capacity of the battery is 7.5 kWh. Was it 80% of 9.4 kWh, or 80% of 7.5 kWh? There was definitely some usable energy left, the car just wanted to use the gas engine as well.

I’m going to assume it’s 80% of 9.4 kWh, or 7.5 kWh. Which means I used 550 watt-hours per mile, or 62 MPGe for city driving. That’s believable, since the MPGe rating of the Tesla S is 88 MPGe City, and the cars weigh about the same. The official EPA rating is 50 MPGe, but I’m pretty sure they botched the test since the official rating includes gasoline usage. You don’t have to use gasoline while the battery’s charged, but it’s very easy to do so inadvertently.

After hitting 13.6 miles, I turned the air conditioning back on and switched into Sports+. I wanted to see the polar opposite, again in city driving. I got 20 MPG over the next 10.5 miles with the battery effectively depleted. Not completely depleted, obviously, but as low as the car really wants it to go. It’s worth noting that sometimes when I was cruising, the power meter said power was going from the gas engine to the wheels and the battery. So even though I wasn’t in e-Charge mode, coasting, or braking, it was still making an effort to charge the battery.

This is understandable. If there’s no power reserve in the battery, the car doesn’t have its full 416 HP available. The car wants a power reserve for acceleration.

20 MPG city is less than the EPA rating of 23, but I was driving the way I want to drive, rather than puttering along at electric-only speeds. Traffic was a limit, of course, but I still got a few chances to accelerate. Again, comparing it to my wife’s Cayman, I’d get at most 15 MPG doing the same kind of driving, despite less weight and less total power, so the hybrid system does help once it’s reduced to recycling energy from braking instead of using power stored from the grid.

For a 24 mile trip, I used 0.53 gallons of gas and 7.5 kWh of electricity. Combining both legs, that was about 32 MPGe overall considering electricity use. If you only count gas, the way the car displays it, it was 45 MPG. Again, entirely city driving. About half driving in a relatively restrained way, about half not.

Tomorrow, time allowing, I’ll try similar tests at highway speeds.

I did notice the Lane Change Assist warning lights several times on this trip, so I have a better feel for this. I don’t think they’re entirely necessary on the driver’s side, since I always spotted the car with a head check. It is a time saver, since a fast glance at the LCA lights tells me I’m blocked before the head check, and it’s also safer because a head check means taking my eyes off the road ahead. I’d never rely on the LCA alone, a head check is always necessary, but it’s helpful. I think it’s significantly more helpful on the passenger’s side, where getting a clear view can be difficult.

Interesting reading Gus, as for the weight thing, even the Leaf and Zoe are heavy cars for their size category, which does make sense as they are mostly battery under the floor! You Porsche is off course a different beast (!), how big (in cm’s, litre’s taken up, whatever measurement they use) is the electric battery on your car? On some hybrids they can be tiny things. Just to get an idea of where the weight of your car lies etc.

I went for a spin in an old bosses Boxter once, and that felt light, but that might have been because of the performance engine etc, the Boxter might still be a ‘heavy’ car?

I’ve been testing a few hybrids and electric cars, as I’m quite interrested in these for the future, I also may have a long distance need, as most pure electric wont cover the entire distance from where I live to Oslo in a single trip (150km). However my friend took me for a spin in his Nissan Leaf, and while it doesn’t have the range, a quick 15 mins top up at a halfway station and you are good to go the rest of the trip, that doesn’t seem unfeasible at ALL. For the rest of you who wants even longer distances covered, I don’t get why you are driving, that’s just a waste of time, take a plane or train or something.

A few things have been cropping up though, weather here is cold and the ground condition are poor at times, so I might not be buying one this time for those reasons, however there is a few things that is bothering me.

I take a look at Gus Panamera S, and it strikes me as very old and low tech car, lots of buttons, a small screen, and plenty of old fashioned and hard to read speedometers. The Nissan Leaf, while looks wise cannot even compare to the Panamera, internally feels like a modern car in every respect while Gus’s car probably just feels expensive.

I feel the Car industry has long been lagging massively behind the rest of the world in terms of tech, I want my shit integrated, I don’t want a fucking sigar lighter fueling my various devices and I want the bloody stuff online, also I want my speed dial on the window screen and digital so I know EXACTLY how fast I’m going and not approximate like those old ones.

The Tesla is actually quite cheap in Norway, but wife won’t allow me as it got no storage space, the Toyota Auris looks hideous, is pretty cheap on the inside too, but feels VERY modern otherwise, however I’m often stuck with Opels because we have a company in the family who sells em but fucking hell I can’t find a single one I like there anymore…

I’m still waiting on the future.

Leaving aside how rude this is, it’s not remotely true. I’ve lost track of the number of features the car has that weren’t on the horizon the last time I shopped for cars.

[ul]
[li]6 cameras, front, rear, and a top-down camera on each edge. When I’m parking I don’t have to guess how close I am to an obstacle, I know. Including how close I am to the curb. The car displays projected path on the camera view based on wheel angle.
[/li][li]Ultrasonic sensors front and rear, which give visual and audio warnings if I approach an obstacle, and automatically turn on the cameras.
[/li][li]Lane Change Assist.
[/li][li]Adaptive suspension. In normal mode it’s tuned for comfort. Hit Sports and the car lowers an inch and the ride becomes stiffer. The suspension is computer controlled and actively adjusts for things like cornering. There’s a reason the Panamera line stays nearly flat on the track compared to other sports sedans.
[/li][li]Headlights that swivel with the wheel and change coverage based on vehicle speed.
[/li][li]It has two screens, not one. One in the center of the dash and one that’s part of the instrument cluster.
[/li][li]The instrument cluster screen shows things like estimate range left with current fuel, trip statistics and fuel consumption, tire pressure, and G forces (in any direction).
[/li][li]The gasoline engine turns completely off routinely, and there’s no perceptible transition when it starts. The “whir-whir-whir-RUMBLE” of engine start that’s routine in every car I’ve ever driven before now doesn’t exist.
[/li][li]Four different driving modes, from an emphasis on pure electric to an emphasis on pure performance.
[/li][li]Built-in learning garage door opener. I pointed my existing opener at the car, held the button down, and the car memorized the code it was transmitting. This may not be that new, but it’s new to me.
[/li][/ul]
Yes, it has a lot of “speedometers,” or rather analog gauges. It has 5 instrument clusters instead of the more common 3. From left to right, the analog gauges are: Oil temperature, lithium ion battery charge, power meter (which I discussed in my first post), tachometer, speedometer, fuel gauge, and coolant temperature. Ironically the only actual “speedometer” it has isn’t a gauge, it’s a numeric digital display. The multi-function display isn’t a gauge, of course, though it can display some, depending on what you’ve selected.

I’m partial to numeric digital displays over analog gauges myself. I’m so primitive I think a digital watch is a nifty idea. Some of those gauges would probably work better as digital displays. However, sometimes the difference between a gauge and a digital display is the difference between a graph and a number. Sometimes a graph is much easier to read than a number, because it gives you information you need rapidly. It’s not as precise as a simple number, but sometimes a fast general sense is a lot more important than the number.

In particular, there’s a reason tachometers and temperature gauges are gauges. Knowing “that’s too high” at a glance is a lot more important than 3 digits of precision. Getting a sense of how fast the number is changing is important for the tach, and that’s very difficult to convey quickly and intuitively without a gauge. Grasping “I’ve got about half left” is a lot faster with a fuel gauge than a fuel number. Though the car has that information as well, both for the fuel range and the electric range, they’re just displayed separately from the meters.

Yes, Porsche is button happy. “One button for one function” is their design philosophy, and they have so many more buttons than older cars because they have so many more functions. The point of this isn’t to be “old fashioned,” it’s to have instant access rather than having to go through nested menus, which is the Tesla approach.

If there’s one legitimate criticism of Porsche’s technology, it’s that their navigation software is quite bad. Or rather, the navigation and maps work just fine, but the interface is very badly designed. I’ve written some extensive rants about it on a Porsche board. This is actually rather common, I’ve seen a lot of poor-to-middling UIs for navigation. Garmin’s quite remarkably good in this respect, so it was hard transitioning from a Garmin portable to this.

You can definitely question some of their interface decisions, like the buttons. But “low tech?” You have GOT to be kidding me.

As for your more general complaints about cars, yeah, the 12v power outlet is an unfortunate standard that just “grew.” There are much more logical standards like the SAE plug for 12 volts that’s common in motorcycles, or the Powerlet socket. The cigarette lighter interface is designed to, well, light cigarettes, not deliver power. The problem is that changing this will require a concerted effort by all car manufacturers and all accessory makers. A single company that changes will just find itself making cars that aren’t compatible with anything else.

HUDs are kind of neat, and I’d like one. However, the last time I had a discussion about this, I came to the realization they aren’t necessarily a good idea. What information do we need constant access to? Speed? Most of the time that’s a matter of finding a speed near the limit, and then staying there, which doesn’t require a constant update. Tachometer? Yeah, that’s important for performance driving, and there’s a reason it should be the central meter, but ordinary drivers don’t really need a constant reminder.

The problem is that every piece of information projected on the windshield is a potential distraction from the road. Regular drivers aren’t fighter pilots trained to split their attention between the sky and a dozen vital gauges. One aftermarket HUD had displaying phone text messages as the feature they advertised most prominently. Which is a horrible, horrible idea.

Eh I wouldn’t take it personally, it’s a big car and he doesn’t like it, maybe doesn’t realize it’s up against actual luxury sedans and while the Tesla compares well in some ways, not in others. And not the Auris or Leaf (come on).

One of the following has far better fuel economy than the others: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34439&id=35278&id=35227&id=33827

Also interesting reading Gus, thanks for the long posts.

I don’t know precisely. I know it’s 600 pounds heavier than the otherwise similar Panamera S. Since it’s a plug-in hybrid, the battery is large compared to most hybrids. Energy capacity is 7x that of a regular Prius, and 2x that of a plug-in Prius. The electric motor is 95 HP vs 80 HP in a plug-in Prius, but it’s hauling around 4600 pounds rather than 3200. And yeah, 3200 is about 400 pounds heavier than a similar-sized Civic.

The Cayman S is 2900 pounds. Not as light as a Lotus Elise, but fairly comparable to most small cars.

I don’t really have a complaint about the 12V plug. In fact it’s almost ideal. It’s a nearly universal plug for supplying DC from cars. On a recent trip I used it to charge my phone, my wife’s phone, and charge my wireless speaker (we also had an ipad that we could have charged but it wasn’t drained). We’re going on holidays in Italy next month and the rental car 12V is one of the few things I don’t have to worry about. It’s a bit bulky but introducing a new DC plug ‘standard’ would just prove XKCD right again. So the lowly 12V keeps me connected with the world and entertained… not too shabby :).

Ok so it doesn’t supply AC, and an AC plug would be a useful feature, but these days with portable tech it’s less and less an issue.

You’re right, of course, but the thrust of his argument wasn’t so much “it’s big,” which is a legitimate complaint, it’s was “it’s low tech,” which was weird.

I’ve actually run into a car like that. I sat in a Lamborghini at a car show in the 90’s, and I was surprised by how crude the interior felt. That is not the impression the Panamera interior conveys, however.

My motivation for buying it was the one you pointed out - extraordinary fuel efficiency for a performance car. Smaller, lighter weight cars are always going to be more efficient, and if I were primarily focused on that, I’d probably have gone for a BMW i3. That’s not really a hybrid, it’s an electric car with a supplemental gas generator, like the Volt, but better done. What I wanted was to retain my enjoyment for driving while feeling better about how much fossil fuel I was consuming.

It’s true that it would be better if this thread remained about electric vehicles and whether they’re practical for most people, rather than incidental features of a particular car. The interesting thing about the Panamera isn’t whether the cabin has a lot of buttons, it’s that it’s a car that can deliver over 400 HP which still gets fuel mileage in 25-30 range for city driving, depending on how you drive it. That I’ve experimentally demonstrated that it can deliver 60+ MPGe isn’t as interesting, since you have to drive it like a Prius to get that efficiency.

I will be driving it like a Prius now and then, when I’m on residential side streets where 25 MPH is wisest. It’s kind of nice that I don’t have to use fuel when I can’t drive it like a performance car.

My main issues with the 12v jack are the bulk, which can be considerable, the problematic connection, and that it’s not particularly safe. I’ve had accessories lose power because the connection wasn’t firm enough. On a couple of occasions I’ve managed to short out 12v outlets and blow the fuse. All it takes is something falling inside there, which is more prone to happen with vertical 12v jacks. In one case, a badly designed 12v plug lost its nosepiece into the outlet, and poof, fried fuse.

The SAE connector is designed so you cannot short it out without some deliberate effort.

You got yourself a very expensive car there Gus, for 200 000 dollars, I’d expect a very different car, but in my eyes you’ve gone for the traditional luxury look which is fine and dandy, but I like tech, its cool to have and useful in my eyes, buttons for everything just looks disorganized and ugly.
As for gauges, the only one I have a HUGE problem with is the speedometer, even in my car, the distance between 50 and 80 (most used speed at km/h) is MINUTE, its so easy to slip up and go faster, I know people tend to like the same old same old, but I’ve seen it done cool and MUCH better…

I figure the tech on the engine, battery and stuff is similar to Tesla, its pleasant to look at and most surely for twice the price is far better dressed inside than the Tesla…

Sorry about my rash commentary though, I was stressed and in a hurry and the filter between brain and mouth was off.

Re 12V, yeah, my cars and most these days put an extra 12v with a cover in the centre console, so dirt/items causing a short is reduced. A USB is better and some newer cars come with one or two of those. Agreed it is a risk though with such an open/exposed design.

Myself, I can’t stand nested menus or touchscreens in cars. It seems the height of silliness to me to put a computer-esque interface into cars while we also think it’s bad to drive distracted.

It was expensive, but not $200k. Final sales price was $99k (USD). Which I hadn’t intended to mention, actually.

EDIT: I just noticed you characterized it as “twice the price of the Tesla.” It isn’t. With reasonable options, it’s about the same price as a well-equipped Tesla P85.

I got to take the car out for a 100 mile highway trip. Speeds were low 60’s since it was a ring road. I got 16.7 electric-only miles this time, and again the car dropped out of pure electric mode when the battery hit 20%. This works out to 450 watt-hours per mile, or 76 MPGe.

Once I was past this, I reset the trip meter, and continued at highway speeds with the battery generally not contributing. I got 35 MPG. I don’t particularly understand how that works, since all the hybrid advantages are out the window when I’m cruising at a fixed speed. The lighter weight, similar power Panamera S doesn’t get that kind of highway gas mileage.

I very much wanted to test the efficiency of the charge mode, but my test got aborted when I ran into stop-and-go traffic. Over the 11 miles of the test, I regained about 30% charge, and ran 24 MPG. Assuming the 35 MPG baseline, I burned 0.14 gallons of gasoline to store 2.8 kWh, which is about 60% of the energy capacity of the gasoline. That seems very high, I was expecting 35% or so. It really needs another test with a longer baseline.

I let the trip calculation continue to run, and for the remaining trip, including a lot of stop-and-go, I had 31 MPG over 27 miles, including both the charging segment and then battery use at low speeds. Since the battery started at 20% and ended at 20%, that’s a real gas mileage figure that isn’t cheating by not counting electrical energy.

In Norway your car starts at 200k while the cheapest tesla is maybe 120k dollars, both benefitting from the huge tax/toll deduction such cars get.