King’s bounty, perhaps, then? It’s something that I’ve played recently enough I remember it, so that narrows it down greatly.
Disciples III: Move and defend/attack/use ability/spell or defend/attack/use ability/spell which ends your turn.
That’s a fair example, actually–that system does work a bit like Elemental’s. The specific way that they frame this is that terrain modifiers only affect “extra” moves, but I think the difference between this and Elemental is intent–they have that rule to restrict the terrain in which multi-move units can take multiple moves. So a unit with 2 movement points can take two moves in the plains, and even go plains-into-forest, but they can’t take two moves through forest, or go forest-to-plains. Even the latter makes a certain amount of sense, if we assume that merely moving into a forest takes less MP than moving all the way through a forest and beyond. But it’s still a little wonky.
Elemental’s is still way wonkier, though. The Civ movement rule doesn’t really have much of an effect, if any, on how you play the game.
I haven’t played Disciples III, so I can’t comment on that. Wasn’t the consensus on that game that the tactical combat was terrible, though?
Whoever else did it, I think we’ve amply demonstrated why this is a bad idea in Elemental. As it works now, every one of your casters should always get a super-cheap cast at the end of the turn. There’s really no reason to not do it.
As with HOMM and D&D, those aren’t cost balancing choices. All use abilities are rated equally- you get one per turn + a move which is not on the same cost balancing scale.
This Elemental mechanic is essentially a “ritual” that you can perform to bypass a cost judgement (spell worth more than attack) made by the designers.
Either a spell action is designed to be worth more than an attack or not. Having it be worth more if you enter the inputs one way but be worth less when entered another way is contrary.
Sepiche
2806
Apologies if this solution has been mentioned, but it seems to me the most elegant fix for it would be to let units in combat go into negative AP and give them new AP equal to their combat speed every turn (up to a maximum of their combat speed).
So if I have a 3 AP sovereign and on the first turn I move 2 squares (leaving me with 1 AP) and cast a 3 AP spell, that would put me at -2 AP. When the next round begins I get my allotment of 3 AP putting me back up to 1 AP, etc. As long as you currently had more than 0 AP you could then take any action, but it would potentially cost you some of your actions from the next turn.
It would make people pay an AP cost for higher AP spells without making players waste unused AP if they don’t do their moves exactly right.
Wow. I didn’t know this little thing of the game was so important as to spawn this discussion. I also mentioned it, but just like a little issue, more of an example of little stuff that plagues the game that it could be done better.
Not giving any opinion on the mechanic, I have not even fought a battle in Elemental yet, just pointing out another use of it.
Yeah, I guess the AP discussion is sort of blown out of proportion at this point. The funny thing is, it’s just one of many issues that I have with combat, and not the most serious of them, by far.
JM1
2810
There are a couple of major issues with the tactical combat. The first is the stacking of units in groups - giving them obscene stats all round and multiple attacks to go with it; the second is the AI.
I looked through the manual, but couldn’t find anything about this…
How do I get my “Notable” level up? My quest lvl is up to 3, and most quest areas are at lvl 2 or 3. But what about “Notable” level? That is still at lvl 2, and just about all that are on the map are at 3.
And how exactly did I lvl up my quest level? Was it actually through the “Adventuring” research? I believe it was…is the Notable Area lvl raised the same way?
Thanks
Chris
ShivaX
2812
So I’ve been holding off until the Day 0 patch hits, but with all the chaos I have no idea whats going on now. Is the Day 0 patch up? Or is it the Gold++, or should I now wait for the Day 0+ (or whatever its called?).
I have a headache.
kerzain
2813
Day zero isn’t up yet. What is up right now is a sort of preliminary patch with several fixes, but not as extensive as Brad claims the actual Day 0 patch will be.
ShivaX
2814
Cool. I’ll keep doing other stuff then.
It’s like this.
Gold (retail version, and the one that people like Tom were already playing).
Gold + (first Impulse version)
Gold ++ (Impulse version + first patch)
Day 0 (retail or Impulse version, once updated with the second patch)
See?? It’s easy!!
:P
(yes, i am also waiting the patch)
This is incorrect–HoMM does not work that way. An archer in HoMM can move or shoot, not both. This is why you need to screen archers in HoMM with other units–because if an enemy closes with them, then they can’t shoot, and are forced to fight (very ineffectively) in melee, or flee. If they could move and then shoot, then they would be able to take a step away and then fire their bow. But that’s not how the game works.
I haven’t played HoMM in awhile but IIRC it’s exactly how the game works and you are incorrect. Archers could definitely move and then shoot.
As for “As it works now, every one of your casters should always get a super-cheap cast at the end of the turn. There’s really no reason to not do it.”, well, archers in HoMM had limited number of arrows. Casters in Elemental have limited amount of mana. There is a reason not to cast willy nilly.
BTW, for the record, I don’t think Elemental combat system is that good or intresting either. I was simply pointing out than move and shoot/cast systems existed before Elemental. :)
There’s a difference between a system that lets you move and attack and what Elemental does. Many, many, many games have move+attack–pretty much every single SRPG I’ve ever played, for starters.
I don’t know that there’s anything wrong with what Elemental is doing, but it is interesting by virtue of being quite unusual.
I’m sorry, but you are mistaken. I have the GoG versions of both HoMM II and III installed, and I just fired them both up to check. You can move, or shoot, not both. HoMM has always had a “one action per turn” system. Like I said, you may be remembering the melee unit option to attack at the end of a move. Again, that’s considered one action–basically a charge. And you have to do it as one action–you can’t move and then decide to attack an adjacent enemy after you move. If you just move a unit to a space adjacent to an enemy, that unit’s turn is over.
Yeah, Adventuring research is what raised your quest level. I think Notable level is just a different branch of Adventuring research. There’s one that boosts ‘Quest and creatures’ and one that boosts ‘Adventures and creatures’ or something, and I think the second one increases your notable level.
It’s a pretty weird system.
I didn’t say willy nilly, but thanks for the exaggeration. Of course you’re limited by the mana, but if you’re going to cast there is no compelling reason to not save it for the end of the turn where you can get it for 1 AP.
I have yet to see anyone point out why this mechanic is a good idea.
