3181

Not everyone is in the “Fuck you, RPS” camp, KG. I think that what Brad said - especially given his status of posting solely as a representative of his company - was absolutely newsworthy.

3182

No, I totally realise. I was specifically talking to Tom. I wanted to make it clear that his insults at Quinns were at the wrong target.

KG

3183

I’m not new to the internet, thankyouverymuch. So as per your wishes, fuck you and fuck your smarmy condescension. You should have known better than to pull a Kotaku on my forum. It’s disappointing enough that you’d do it. It’s doubly disappointing that you’d show up here to crow about it.

-Tom
3184

Who cares? The beauty of waiting is that whether or not the release was shipworthy is irrelevant.

How can you evaluate a game without buying it? Well, here’s what I did:

I bought and played Galactic Civilizations II. The version 1.53 I played wasn’t as bad as Elemental sounds, but it had similar problems with bugs, funky UI issues, broken game mechanics, poor documentation, and overall lack of polish or coherent design.

I followed the beta. Everything I saw indicated a game that was going to be released with virtually nothing that I would consider actual beta testing. It was never supposed to be fun, or work right, even a week before beta. What a shock that it still doesn’t work right a few days after release. What a shock that documentation barely exists and game systems aren’t explained, when core systems were still being radically changed all the way to the end of beta and beyond.

I didn’t pre-order. Paying for a game sight unseen is not the way to get an under served genre out of the ghetto. If you are willing to pay for poor quality, you will get poor quality. If you pre-order a Stardock game after playing Galactic Civilizations II, you are willing to pay for poor quality. (If you pre-ordered without playing Galactic Civilizations II, you are willing to pay for pretty much anything.)

I’m waiting for the demo. I don’t care if it’s not out yet. If Stardock wants me to buy their game at release, they should a) improve their games, and b) release the demo before they release the game. I’ve got a life, and other games to play. Plus, reading forums drama is probably more fun than playing Elemental at this point.

I read reviews. Just kidding, game reviews are garbage. Don’t read reviews. Except Tom, he’s OK.

I follow developers religiously, and care about what they say. Actually I’m kidding about this too. It’s an enormous waste of time, unless you are a developer looking for tips about what to do (have actual betas) or not do (waste time posting on forums).

3185

Now you’re just being as big of a jerk as Matt Gallant.

-Tom
3186

Which is ironic, considering:

EDIT: I myself pre-ordered this game a year ago at PAX. I understand not letting me get a refund during the beta period. I don’t understand rewarding my early-adopter support by removing an option that new customers have. If the game is busted at release, according to Stardock’s own Bill of Rights I should be able to get a refund the same as anyone else.

3187

Yup. You got a point there.

3188

I’m enjoying Elemental: War in the Forums better than the actual game.

3189

Can I agree with Tom Chick for once and still think his posts are abysmal?
Apparently I can.

3190

I believe Frank may have been referencing this tidbit brought up by Cory on the previous page.

3191

3192

While I absolutely think they should give you your money back if you want it, I’m utterly flabbergasted by trying to suss out why you want your money back. You thought a year ago that this would eventually be a game you wanted to play really bad. You thought so to the extent that you were willing to shell out your cash then. I guess releasing at the current point could leave a bad taste in one’s mouth, but is there anyone in this thread, regardless of how they feel about Brad, who would dispute that Stardock has a long and monotonically consistent history of pounding away on their games until the only “problems” left are matters of dispute about what the game should be? Why has your patience suddenly run out now when, undoubtedly, the game will be in a far better state in another few months and you’ve already waited a year?

3193

You should have listened to me back in June of '09, on page 10 or 11 of this same thread, when I was complaining about Stardock preorders, and you were contemplating how you could sign up. Look at this way, at least they didn’t charge you 10% over the retail price this time around, and then later explain that you were simply paying a 5$ beta-access surcharge.

3194

Tom: I’m defending my writer and our website’s decisions. I’d do it for you if you wrote something for me. And I’ve been far less condescending to you than you have been to us. You’re not Moses, bringing down the rules of games journalism from on high. We don’t have to agree with you, and if you insult us, I’m not going to sit there and nod through your sermon.

(Yes, now I’m being condescending.)

So: I’m surprised you think we’d be ashamed of it. We did it. If we didn’t think it was the right thing to do, we wouldn’t have done it. We’re not idiots.

(And if we have second thoughts, we’d back down immediately. The story has been tweaked in areas which we thought painted a portrait we were unhappy with. We’re not afraid of a Mea Culpa.)

Regarding the divisive point: yes, Qt3 is a special forum. But it’s a public forum. Everyone writing here knows it. And a public figure writing on it certainly does.

But I also stress, the quote is absolutely the secondary point of the story. This wasn’t the headline.

KG

3195

Because it should be a fair assumption that the game performs correctly at launch. As Stardock so magnanimously proclaimed in their very own gamer’s bill of rights.

I don’t understand why people don’t think folks should be able to get their money back if the game is crap upon release. What, the onus is on those of us that paid a year ago to just assume that they’ll put it in a tolerable state eventually?

How many months do the early adoption supporters have to wait, exactly, before we’re entitled to the same ‘rights’ as folks who buy the game just after release? If anything, the early adoption supports deserve more, not less.

3196

Ugh. This is so, so terrible. I feel sorry for everyone involved, as many of the people are those I like as forum personalities. Even if they did earn having to endure some of this shit-storm without an umbrella. At this point, I wish we could just stick to posting bug lists in this thread, gameplay tips in the other thread, and and everything else in a third so I could avoid the P&R bleed in all its forms. I am trying to avoid that kind of heated conversation for a while. Hell, after all the turbulence in this thread I went back to P&R and posted just to cleanse my palate.

3197

Some issues getting confused here; Brad wasn’t exactly posting as a representative of his company, and he definitely mixed in his own personality when he defended the product. Which line do you tow, and when you step over it to fill in the other need will you even know where it is? The gray area here is very deep for developers, and Brad may have crossed, but in any event he’s now posted exactly what his intentions will be from now on, and that’s as a rep and not just as a gamer and game developer. There’s a big difference.

My participation has always been as a gamer and never really participate in discussions for products that my company develops, only to correct misconceptions (or outright fabrications) and be of help to customers or potential customers. People were always more than welcome to criticize. But I know better than to even think about participating. That’s just the way it is. Of course I wasn’t running the company, so haven’t been exactly in Brad’s shoes, but I think he quickly realized he can’t do both any more. Not here.

So yeah, what special relationship is there exactly? There’s no golden rule about pulling punches for someone’s game if they happen to be a forum member. You should expect praise where it’s deserved and criticism where it’s warranted. End of story.

As for the journalism spat… sigh.

— Alan

3198

What Alan just said!!

3199

Not that I can tell. Instead, you’re simply resigning yourself to doing the same crap other blogs do. From your posts in this thead, I can cull “it struck us as news” and “welcome to the internet”. Those are your defenses? Because that’s all I saw by way of a defense, along with some dickish British humor. That, granted, is funny in a dickish British way. But let’s get down to brass tacks, as we say in the colonies.

Look, I could run a site with goatse pictures, pop up flash ads that install malware, and nothing but links to Rickrolls. Then, if you said anything critical about my site, I could just reply “welcome to the internet”.

So here’s a sermon for you: The internet is a cess pool, Kiernon. And if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. I expect better from you guys at Rock Paper Shotgun. You should be ashamed – and I mean that literally – for trawling this place for an out-of-context quote from a beleagured developer who made a thoughtless off-the-cuff comment for which he quickly apologized. That he’s a friend of mine makes it more galling, but I’d react the same way if it was any of the developers who I hope to make comfortable here. Your newly embraced “welcome to the internet” and “we thought it was newsworthy” attitude is now as damaging to this place as all the other Kotakus. Congratulations. I guess you’ve really made it to the big leagues.

-Tom

P.S. A developer posted earlier in this thread something about how he once got in trouble for a post he made on this forum. You guys might want to spin that out into a story over there on Rock Paper Shotgun! Should I just forward the post to your inbox? Or I’m guessing you guys must have a “submit news” link I can use, right?

3200

You’re right, Kieron. The headline was “Stardock retracts bill of rights?” despite the fact that it was pointed out numerous times in the comments section that it was patently false. I know you guys eventually corrected it… hours and hours later.