Elemental all-purpose thread

[Richard_Holt]

MoM does not hold up well. The interface, graphics and AI are a mess. If you want a modern fantasy 4x tbs, you should consider the Fall from Heaven II mod for Civ 4. It’s a remarkable piece of work.

Yeah I love Fall from Heaven II, it’s one of my favorite strategy games. But one of the reasons I like it so much is how off the wall crazy it is, which kind of makes it unbalanced for multiplayer to my mind.

[frank_austin]

I opened a ticket yesterday, and then called and spoke with Elisa today.

The exact same rep that I spoke to. What the hell.

[Mark_Asher]

You can get Master of Magic from GoG. It’s $5.99. The AI in that game has always been an issue with it, but it’s interesting to play. Every game is different.

The other 4X fantasy game to try is Kael’s Fall from Heaven 2. You need Civ 4.

[Dave_Weinstein]

The exact same rep that I spoke to. What the hell.

Well, I was told to expect the refund to my account in 1-3 business days. I assumed that she meant my Credit Card account, I suppose it’s possible that she meant my Impulse account.

I guess I’ll find out in 1-3 business days.

[kerzain]

I seem to remember playing a demo of the first Age of Wonders game, I don’t think I got on with it. Don’t remember why though. Maybe I should check out AoW2.

Not AoW 2, AoW: Shadowmagic, almost the same game, but worlds better. Think of it like a retooling and rerelease of AoW2 with better gameplay, but all the same graphics and resources. Better campaign etc too.

I would highly recommend the game, if you can find a copy of it. Boxed copies seem to be very expensive on ebay and amazon (used or not), but there is talk here of the trilogy being available on Steam soon.

AoW:SM should be fun right out of the box. I was hitting it pretty hard a month or two ago, and for me it really holds up very well.

[JM1]

I would put the summary of Brad’s involvement more like “Brad was initially helpful and responsive to most criticism, despite several openly hostile posters, before snapping at one particular user who had posted some reasonable criticism”. Even if Brad didn’t engage directly with the Matt Gallant’s in the thread they were still ‘internet shouting’ at him. Quibbles, though eh?

Where was he responsive to criticism?

His reply to my comment about Stardock deserving flak if they release an unfinished product was before anyone had played the game, when he was clearly confident we’d love the game.

Brad replied to a long (and very reasonable) post by RepoMan by saying: “Have you actually played the release of Elemental?”. The rest of his posts say things like “The general feedback we’re seeing is very positive. We’re happy with the game. We like the game.”

Brad himself manages to separate the trolls from the genuine criticisms in that post:

Anyway, the hostility in this thread exceeds my own tolerance for putting up with said hostility (Frank and Matt and their ilk are not worth my time).

Also, to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an “early beta” then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don’t buy our games.

That’s two different issues. There’s the trolling - and we’re all on Brad’s side for that. Then there’s the reaction to criticism. His reaction is consistent throughout the thread - he believes the game is in good shape and the best work they’ve ever done, and that there are some isolated issues.

[Stepsongrapes]

MoM does not hold up well. The interface, graphics and AI are a mess. If you want a modern fantasy 4x tbs, you should consider the Fall from Heaven II mod for Civ 4. It’s a remarkable piece of work.

Eh? MoM’s interface and graphics hold up fine. I just played several rounds as part of the recent QT3 challenge.

The AI has always been fairly bad. It was considered bad even by the standards of its time.

FfH is great, but it ain’t the same as MoM. No tactical combat for one thing. That’s like saying that Gal Civ (which is also great) is a substitute for MOO2- no tactical combat there, either.

[Dan_Lawrence]

I can also greatly recommend the downloaded version of FFH2 for Civ4:BTS. Probably played about fifteen super long games of it by now. Fantastic flavour, especially with the new custom map types like ‘Erebus’. Get it if you haven’t!

[Dan_Theman]

That’s two different issues. There’s the trolling - and we’re all on Brad’s side for that. Then there’s the reaction to criticism. His reaction is consistent throughout the thread - he believes the game is in good shape and the best work they’ve ever done, and that there are some isolated issues.

If we’re going to parse words, then we should strive to get them right:

[Elemental is the best game Stardock has ever produced. By far. It’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It’s a very very big game with a lot of “stuff” in it and there are certainly going to be rough edges.

But as a game, it is the best we’ve ever made. No game we’ve made has anywhere near the replayability Elemental has. Or the depth. Or the amount of stuff. Or simply, the amount of fun in it.

I don’t doubt it’ll get knocked, deservedly, for the kinds of rough edges Tom brings up, but I also believe that most people, including reviewers, will like the game.](http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2345484&postcount=2069)

He also said this:

[

](http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2345686&postcount=2124)

If Elemental is released feeling incomplete, buggy, whatever then we should get flamed.

And this:

[Hi guys,

Let me add some points here:

1. Tom Chick is one of the top gaming journalists in the industry. He’s not just some guy.

2. He is reviewing the gold version (he is NOT playing the day 0 version). I.e. He is NOT playing a beta.

3. While I would quibble with some of the content (yes, we multiply bonuses. We multiplied them in Entrepreneur, we multiplied them in GalCiv, and we multiply them in Elemental and have throughout the beta).

4. I agree with Tom that the Hiergamenon page should make it more clear that those bonuses are being multiplied and that there is a text bug in the description of Educated that was since addressed.

5. The math system under the hood does work as designed, even in the gold version. It’s not buggy but I think Tom brings up a valid point that the way it is explained to the player needs work (I think Tom would also agree it’s light years ahead of how we “explained” the math in GalCiv II which was, essentially we didn’t).

6. This isn’t a review, it’s a diary. Please read Tom’s other works. It doesn’t mean he hates the game. He is pointing things out that he thinks can be improved in the game and we can all benefit from it.](http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2345460&postcount=2063)

[KevinC]

I seem to remember playing a demo of the first Age of Wonders game, I don’t think I got on with it. Don’t remember why though. Maybe I should check out AoW2.

AoW2: Shadow Magic is the pinnacle of the series, without a doubt.

[JM1]

If Elemental is released feeling incomplete, buggy, whatever then we should get flamed.

Yes, I know he said this. You know why? Because it’s my fucking post he’s replying to! Argh. I pointed to it in my post you’re replying to. Your quotes are not a counter to my post. They simply back up what I’m saying. All of that is Brad’s damage control with Tom’s diary, before anyone in the thread had actually gotten their hands on the game and thus before anyone other than Tom was able to give criticism based on first-hand knowledge.

[Scotch_Lufkin]

AoW2: Shadow Magic is the pinnacle of the series, without a doubt.

Make sure if you get SM you patch it up to the latest (1.4?) version which is unofficial, but was made by a group consiting of actual devs and community fans, if I remember right.

[Dan_Theman]

Yes, I know he said this. You know why? Because it’s my fucking post he’s replying to! Argh. I pointed to it in my post you’re replying to. Your quotes are not a counter to my post. They simply back up what I’m saying. All of that is Brad’s damage control with Tom’s diary, before anyone in the thread had actually gotten their hands on the game and thus before anyone other than Tom was able to give criticism based on first-hand knowledge.

Where did I say my post was to counter yours? I’m clarifying.

You know what, forgive me for going a little off the deep end here, but I’m getting really tired of people (not just you) reading into such very simple things that I post.

For the freaking record:
I agree that the game has serious issues.
I agree that Brad shouldn’t have said what he did in that one post.
I agree that you are largely right in your post, but you misquoted him and had also asked for examples of him responding which I then provided. I’m sorry if it was rhetorical, but I didn’t read it that way.

[Razgon]

MoM holds up very well, actually - The UI is more intuitive and is better at explaining things than elemental is at this stage. You can right-click everything pretty much and get explained what is what.

The game is very much playable and purchasable through GOG

[Richard_Holt]

MoM holds up very well, actually

AoW:SM should be fun right out of the box. I was hitting it pretty hard a month or two ago, and for me it really holds up very well.

Thanks for the tips guys!

[TurinTur]

It’s true that the AI in MoM is bad and that is unbalanced, but until you reach the point where you have seen all to see and master in the game (which is the point where the bad ai and the unbalanced stuff may annoy you), you will have tons of fun trying different races, different schools of magic, and using creative tactics.

[Stepsongrapes]

It’s true that the AI in MoM is bad and that is unbalanced, but until you reach the point where you have seen all to see and master in the game (which is the point where the bad ai and the unbalanced stuff may annoy you), you will have tons of fun trying different races, different schools of magic, and using creative tactics.

For the experienced player, MoM isn’t so much about winning (which happens barring bad luck on the start). It’s really about how you win: crazy come-back, insane super hero fully-deck out, how uber your wizard gets, etc.

For me, most games are less about the strategy and more about what random heroes, spells, and items I get. MoM is the loot-whore’s 4X.

[JM1]

Where did I say my post was to counter yours? I’m clarifying.

You know what, forgive me for going a little off the deep end here, but I’m getting really tired of people (not just you) reading into such very simple things that I post.

For the freaking record:
I agree that the game has serious issues.
I agree that Brad shouldn’t have said what he did in that one post.
I agree that you are largely right in your post, but you misquoted him and had also asked for examples of him responding which I then provided. I’m sorry if it was rhetorical, but I didn’t read it that way.

I didn’t misquote him. I paraphrased him and quoted him directly in some places. There’s a big difference.

Brad was responding before the shitstorm hit and QT3 members started reporting problems with the game. After that he barely posted and he certainly didn’t address the vast majority of concerns - he corrected us on the number of seeds (before giving the spiel about how the game was the best they’d made). The very next post he made was the one which insulted Ben and everyone else who thought the product was of beta standard.

Remember, this conversation is about whether Brad was receptive to criticism. He was certainly quite upbeat in his dialogue about Tom’s diary, although he stressed that those were cosmetic issues, but as soon as any genuine criticism came the way of his game he lost the plot. There is no back-and-forth with Brad.

[Bill_Dungsroman]

And FINALLY* we have a (Giant) Death Robot joke in the Elemental thread(s). I thought those were reserved for Civ V :)

*= Unless someone has already made one.

What the fuck, I want a crazy o in my name like Jørn Weines has!

Bill Dungsrøman. Maybe with an umlaut over the u. Hell yes.

[KevinC]

I have to disagree, there’s plenty of back and forth with Brad. This thread was already quite heated before he popped off, and the history of some of the people goes back a lot further than this thread here.