3 is basically skipping everyone’s turn, the downside of 3 is that even though you get your turn, but you never get to collect resource like gold or mana.

In magic the gathering mechanic is basically skip your untap phase!!

Time stop cost a lot of mana to maintain, so without any mana income, in original MoM you can only keep it up for certain amount of turns until your mana rans out.

I’m sure that’s part of it. The problem is, when you ensure that spells don’t unbalance the game by making the effects not powerful enough to unbalance the game, bland spells is pretty much a guaranteed outcome. People argue about this, but I never found MoM’s spells to be unbalanced. Sure, you get some crazy-powerful abilities, but so does everyone else. The result is a game where you feel like a magical titan duking it out with other magical titans. Most of the balance complaints that people had about MoM boiled down to the AI not making effective use of the abilities at its disposal.

It would be ridiculous to review a game as shipped to customers? Should Roger Ebert withhold judgement until the Director’s Cut with special features comes out?

with MoM, on impossible difficulty, the AI is quite good at use the spells at their disposal, but they are bad at diplomacy, often trading like flame strike for floating island.

but overall the AI is really good at disjunction/spellblast your enchantment, while at same time keep up with their global enchantment like Great waste or Suppression.

They do fall for the start on myrran and planar seal so no one can get through trick.

This argument has caused me to register and take up sides, because by and large the commentary here seems to paint the game as an unfinished abomination.

Here are some caveats and qualifications:

I never played MoM, so I can’t compare it to that.
I’m a political liberal, so I’m not naturally one of Brad’s buds (ie, I’m not taking up the cause for him for ulterior motives).
I played GalCivII and really couldn’t get into it, even after it was “mature.”

OK, I agree the magic system needs to be fleshed out, that groups of men seem overpowered, heroes seem underpowered, and basically all the complaints that can be found in this thread.

But since v106, the game finally runs well on my machine and I am having a BLAST with it. I love the dynasty feature, for instance. I also love how the shards and lost libraries are so precious as to make me deeply consider hitting an ally that has one I don’t have (much as oil or uranium in Civ IV have that effect). I enjoy turning up new resources in my own lands by using techs. I could go on, there’s a lot about the game to like as it is already.

The cloth map feature is awesome. I love the look of it so much I basically only play in that.

There are plenty of little flaws remaining to iron out, but I would in no way call this a 3/10 game – it’s getting a solid 7 from me already and if the magic and battle systems get ironed out, it’s clearly headed for 9/10 status.

As I said, I never played MoM, so I had no template in mind when I heard about Elemental. Since v1.06, it has really become enjoyable, even as I work around the remaining flaws.

I would say, if you did like GalCiv, or any Civilization-type game, but would like a fantasy theme, then this game is probably going to appeal to you. I don’t believe it’s as awful as some have painted it in this thread.

Strange double post thing going on here…

I wouldn’t call it an abomination, I still have fun with it, but I consider it to be a jumble of interesting pieces that are begging to be put together into a cohesive game, with other parts that desperately need to be retooled (Champions, Magic system, etc).

I see this over and over, but it’s hardly different than MoM’s nagas and sprites, both of which cost 100 mana to summon, 2 mana to upkeep, and fling projectiles 5 squares away.

It’s just a need to cover basic needs (like projectiles or basic archer troops, respectively) regardless of which spellbook you take, and which shard you find.

Also note that I think the spells are getting secondary effects. The ice bolt makes opponents lose a turn, and the boulder throws them back a space. Admittedly why this is added NOW is … a bit odd. :P

I wouldn’t call it an abomination, I still have fun with it, but I consider it to be a jumble of interesting pieces that are begging to be put together into a cohesive game, with other parts that desperately need to be retooled (Champions, Magic system, etc).

Yep. I’m enjoying it as an RPG with CIV-lite elements. The ability to craft your own nation and sovereign go a long way to appease my wrath. Also, Lower Land is fun. :P

I’m just saying there are much better examples to bring up than the fact that there are redundant spells. :P

Sprites came in units of 4 with 1 hit point and acted like flying glass cannons.

Nagas had 2 units, 6 hit points each and couldn’t shoot. They were swimming melee attackers.

There might be some relatively equal units in MoM, but nagas and sprites is a terrible example.

MoM’s nagas and sprites, both of which cost 100 mana to summon, 2 mana to upkeep, and fling projectiles 5 squares away

someone needs to refresh their memory…

Yeah, they couldn’t be more similar.

Nagas
2 Mana Upkeep
4 Melee
0 Ranged
3 Defense
7 Resistance
2 Figures @ 6 Hits
Swimming 1
Strength 4 Poison Spittle Attack (First Strike)
+1 to hit bonus

Sprites
3 Mana Upkeep
2 Melee
3 Ranged (Magic)
2 Defense
8 Resistance
4 Figures @ 1 Hit
Flying 2
Forester

I don’t mind the occasional redundant spell. For instance, I think each Sphere needs some sort of offensive capability. But no Sphere has any sort of theme or personality to it. It’s not that a couple spells are redundant, it’s that they almost all are. You get an attack spell that does 0-INT damage and you get a “Summon X Elemental”, a bunch of spells of questionable value, and none of them are effective past the early game. Where’s my Fire meteor swarm to turn an enemy’s city into a giant crater with the wonderful deformable terrain this engine has? Where’s the floods I can raise with water, or the kraken I can summon to wreck havoc on coastal cities and ships? Or Earth letting me uncover more metal/gold mines, raise massive fortifications, or shake apart enemy structures with earthquakes?

As it stands right now, if you want to go with a magic-heavy approach, you need to grab all the elemental books because you have no idea what shards you’re going to be able to find. The only decision I make regarding magic is, once a shard is found, I focus on that Sphere’s spells, and that’s hardly an interesting decision with pros and cons. There’s certainly no reason to research Fireball (or any fire combat spell) over Lightning Bolt when I have an Air Shard handy, or vice versa.

And then there’s Champions, which are the appendix of elemental, the part of the game which serves no discernible purpose. I want champions to be, first of all, effective at something. They are champions after all. But other than that, I want them to be more interesting than raising stat points per level. I loved particular champions in Age of Wonders because of particular abilities they had. Maybe one had fire breath and could fly, another one was great at counterattack, or a heal ability they had tucked away. On leveling up, I want interesting choices, to borrow phrase from Sid Meier. I want the choice to grant my Champions special abilities every few levels, even if it’s something like a Charge, a Shield Wall, immunity to counterattack, dual-wielding, leap attacks, traps, camouflage, backstabs, leadership bonuses, etc etc etc. There’s some real excellent games to take idea from: Master of Magic, King’s Bounty, Age of Wonders. This community, and that on the Elemental forum, are full of ideas and flavor that is ripe for plundering.

I don’t mean to bash on the game, because like I said, there’s a lot to like about it. But it frustrates me because because it could be terrific with a few reworked systems and a few balancing/bugfix passes. I mean terrific. It’s got the potential to be a game I’ll happily play for years and years, someone just needs to give it a giant kick in the ass to get it into shape.

Not to be anal, but there are some significant differences between Sprites and Nagas in MoM. Sprites fly and have the Forester ability, which grants a forest movement bonus to all units that share a stack with them. Nagas swim, get First Strike (a big deal) with a bonus to hit, and have a poison-based attack. On the downside, they only come two to a unit (Sprites are a four-creature unit). They don’t even play the same in combat, let alone in a general sense.

That’s what I’ve read. It is (or was, I haven’t played since the 1.00 ver) that alt-tabbing out of the game would cause ATI cards to crash. And boy did it on my ATI card. However, I did not have any other crashes other than the alt-tab issue. I even knew that before I played because I read it on the Elemental forum. I just alt-tabbed to see what would happen.

“Hmmmm. Let’s see what happens. Huh, look at that. Fucking crashed.”

Otherwise no issues. I stopped playing the game because the UI was giving me fits, I didn’t know what the hell was going on, I was tried of digging for info and those Motherfucking auto-generated city names are the WORST fucking things I have EVER seen.

I’ll pick it back up later. I was really disappointed but I know Stardock and Brad and they’ll work hard to improve it. Just fix the auto-name-generator fast.

I’m not too fond of it either, but it is pretty much an industry standard nowadays to ship games with content on the disc that you have to unlock.

I have a feeling that working multiplayer ain’t content sitting on that disc waiting to be unlocked. . .

Content unlocking is like the anti-thesis of this: you’re so far ahead of development that you stuck extra stuff on to hand to players later.

This is you’ll get it when we (hopefully) build it.

I agree with everything else both of you posted, but these parts really stand out to me. I was in the betas, and it struck me how the game wasn’t just un-fun (as promised); it was dry and disconnected, and downright dull, even after we got past the earliest betas and closed in on release. We kept hearing that it was only that way because they were dribbling out tiny portions of the game at a time on purpose, and that they had plans – big plans! – and non-public builds that were just amazing! But in retrospect, the initial impressions I got from those early builds are still true now. The number of typos and bugs is dramatically lower, and they continue to diminish with every patch, but the game itself simply has no flair, no heart, and no soul.

You don’t produce a great game by just piling up a great big heap of fantasy-themed features, and in the end, that’s all Elemental turned out to be. I remember Brad saying something along the lines of “Making a game engine takes 95% or more of the total development time, and the game itself doesn’t even need all of the remaining 5%”. And so here we are.

Yeah, I remember him saying that and thought it was complete bullshit then and still do now.

After playing it for 20 hours I have to agree - that’s exactly what have happened. Brad stayed true to his words, unfortunately. 95% efforts clearly went into engine and 5% into game. The bitter irony is that he wasn’t far from the truth - with 2.5-5% of efforts that would go into the game that could be one of the greatest turn-based RPG of all times. What a pity. :(

Perhaps Stardock and Brad will be able to patch it into much better shape - after all the engine is there. But it’s a bit insulting to Q3 game developers and veteran players that Brad insisted that the game is ready to be released, even with day0 patch. (which, admittedly, made the game much more playable). But c’mon Brad, whom are you kidding? 1 more month of tweaking, balancing, and AI work would have huge imact on the game, making it masterpiece. And I am sure you know it yourself. If this is the case, that you can’t possibly say that the game is ready for the release.

I respect Brad and his company for their commitment to providing long-time support for their games, this is great and rare in the industry. But IMHO it would be more straight forward and honest to admit that you had to rush things and release game before it was really ready. (and please, don’t go down the raod “the game is never really ready, there is always something to imporve, et cetera, et cetera …” This is not the case with Elemental, the game was clearly rushed. I am saying it as a software engineer and game developer, as well as long-time veteran player.)

EDIT: After re-reading what I’ve wrote I’ve realized that it sounded that I am accusing Brad of lying. Wanted to make it clear - I am not. After reading his posts for few years I think Brad is a great guy, and great developer and CEO. And being “ready” or not “ready” is subjective, so it’s quite possible that in Brad’s perception the game is ready. It’s just I strongly disagree with him, and it is clear that many veteran players, developers and industry people do not agree with his assesment either. I wish he would just admit it and move on to working to make the game better (which he and his team are already doing)

Just keep trolling.