3621

I think this might explain why I don’t like GalCiv, and why I’m pretty certain that I wouldn’t like Elemental. It’s certainly true that coding the logic for a strategy game takes under 1/20 the effort of making a flashy engine for one…but coding is trivial compared to designing a good game.

3622

You know what I’d love to see? Vic Davis work for Stardock! I mean, Vic has more game design talent in his little finger than the entire Stardock team! But he lacks the marketing and distribution genius of Brad Wardell. People should play to their strengths and know their weaknesses. Vic, if you’re reading this, what’re you waiting for?!

3623

I don’t know if it’s as simple as that. GalCiv2 today with all the patches and expansions is a much deeper game then it was at vanilla release years ago. So over time it seems there are people at Stardock who can come up with the stuff that fleshes the game world out in creative terms. It could simply be that Stardock’s approach is to focus on the code at first and worry about that stuff later. I’m enjoying Elemental more then I expected to, but it’s generic fantasy in a lot ways and reminds me of the “old school” approach of letting the technical experts play at being creative. Now days we see a lot more use of professional writers and other creative folks involved in game development and our willingness to accept amateur worlds is less then what it was 20 years ago.

3624

I disagree about the feel of the game. I thought that Galactic Civilizations 2 was pretty bland when it first came out, and didn’t much play it past the first couple of days. I was in the Elemental beta, but I could never get it to run on my computer until cycle 2 or 3, and by then I was knee-deep in other games.

Playing the game now with the 1.06 patch is interesting: it’s a lot of fun to go on quests, build up my cities, and find new heroes wandering around. There was an earlier build where shards were more common, and I was surprised to play a few games in 1.06 - and get stomped - without seeing a single shard. My latest game I found a fire shard quite a ways away from my five main cities & made a point of trekking across the wilderness to claim it.

I was expecting MoM 2, and in that regard I’m disappointed. I don’t care about my sovereign’s hair or clothes; I was expecting different levels of complexity when it came to spells. I really liked the way that MoM handled spells, and as others have mentioned, I loved the late-game spells that really changed the world. It was also more meaningful to have to choose which spellbooks you had access to before you started playing: should I amp up my Chaos books to get access to eldritch weapons, or Sorcery to get the more esoteric game-changing spells in the late-game? Should I play a Death hero and raise a legion of undead with a few low-level wraiths? In Elemental, it feels like magic is one emphasis among many. The tech tree is handled well in the game, however.

Another poster also mentioned customising weapons/artifacts, which again I miss. Even if that’s not available, it would be easy to put some more “soul” into the game with recognisable wandering heroes. MoM had Mystic X the Unknown – I haven’t played MoM in years and I can remember his name! It would be nice if, instead of random names, we had champions running around that we could recruit, characters with established back stories, pre-existing racial tolerances (“Well, I would help you, but it seems you’re dabbling too much in air magic, and I’m really more of a fire researcher”), and the like. Getting Mystic X in a MoM game was a rush - in Elemental, I’m not looking at the names, but at their abilities.

Flying units? Would this be hard? It would be nice to crush enemies across oceans using fire dragons. Wasn’t there a dragon or two depicted in an early teaser for Elemental?

My only other concern, like a lot of other players, is that performance right now is abysmal. I have an i7 820, 8GB of RAM, an ATI 4890 (10.7 drivers), dedicated sound card, and I’m still getting terrible, terrible performance in 3D. Terrible. Starcraft runs better, Crysis runs better, and this is a TBS!

I’m excited to see what Elemental could be in the future. It’s an okay game right now, but it definitely has the potential to be a lot better. I don’t regret preordering.

3625

Vic’s games are great the way they are. Aside from a few small UI issues, Armageddon Empires is perfect, and Solium Infernum is absolutely fantastic. Stardock might need Vic, but Vic doesn’t need Stardock.

3626

<paulhogan>
That’s not a troll…this is a troll.
</paulhogan>

3627

Everything I’ve been reading says there is a major ATI specific issue with the game and how it runs. No excuse for it, but in comparison my three year old PC with an equally old Nvidia video card that doesn’t even have the latest drivers is running the game reasonably well. So hopefully they can get the ATI issues out of the way quickly.

3628

Stardock has an amazing asset: Brad’s internet persona. He has legions of fans who want him to succeed and who try to support him when they can. Due to this Stardock (Brad) does not need to invest as much in product development/design as other companies and it shows time and again.

There is no need for sour grapes about the state of Elemental. This is what you should expect from a Stardock product. Perhaps after 2 or 3 fully priced expansions the game will be detailed and interesting to play, but expecting a Stardock product to be fully functional and/or deep at release is simply ignoring the past.

I really like TBS games and I buy quite a few just to support the genre, however given what I have seen from Stardock I avoided elemental like the plague.

3629

You use the phase “a few small UI issues” in a very peculiar way. Armageddon Empires may be a great game, but it was hit squarely and repeatedly upside the head with the “bad UI” stick. And we all know why – because it was built in Director. That game’s interface is complete and total shit.

3630

Tom’s review is up: http://fidgit.com/archives/2010/08/elemental_the_review.php#more

3631

Yeah, I suppose that would have been smart. When Brad said they had learned from GalCiv2 I thought he meant they were going to release Elemental in a more polished state, not even more incoherent and unfinished. After this disaster I’m not buying any more Stardock games either.

3632

I believe the same was also said about the Demigod release debacle. I have come to the firm belief that developers DO NOT learn based on past experience of earlier releases. If Elemental was not ready then be honest and say “the game is not ready” and don’t release it.

I don’t want to pick on Stardock as these types of problems plague all developers but I think it is SOP that all Stardock games are released unfinished and eventually become awesome games. Most of us Stardock fans accept that as a rule. ;)

3633

Yeah, I totally misread … looks like everything. I can only say that I was squinting at a small DOSbox window and saw the similar casting cost and upkeep, and ignored what I thought was flavor text. Guess MoM is far deeper than I thought.

None of that is listed on the summon screen. I should’ve investigated deeper.

3634

That was one of the great things about MoM (/it’s magic system) - an entire booklet with spell descriptions and details came with the game that was thicker than the manuals many games ship with nowadays.
Though, iirc, you could look up most information in the game itself as well.
But sometimes you’d need to actually summon that creature before you could find out it’s actual stats.

As for Elemental - it got the feedback it deserved, imo. If you release crap, you gotta be prepared to sit out that shitstorm.
ESPECIALLY if you’re the one that pointed his finger at everyone in the competition and came up with rules every game developer ought to entitle his game’s buyers to, and then violated them yourself when it suited you, claiming you actually were NOT violating them the whole time.
The question is not whether or not Elemental has potential, the question is where it stands now.
And even though Tom’s review was VERY generous - and he doesn’t really attempt to hide the fact that this is due to him and Brad being on friendly terms - it’s get’s a “Fry It” even from him (although it’s not really spelled out).

rezaf

3635

Is GalCiv now really a deeper game? There’s more stuff in it, but the last time I started a game with both expansions I didn’t get the sense of added depth – just more things on the build menus.

As to letting technical experts play creative, it’s a fair point and obviously a factor here. But you don’t need professional writers or even much of a backstory to create an immersive playing experience. MoM had a skeletal narrative setup, but was a rich playing experience due to the incredible variety of tools put at the players’ disposal. What MoM had – what every engaging game needs – is a compelling and integrated design, as Damien has already emphasized. The last thing a strategy game needs is a pre-scripted story; the story should unfold through the game’s design.

Side note, has anyone found anything other than a fire node? Is it just that we’re all playing the same pre-made map? I haven’t heard mention of any other kind of node yet.

3636

Do you mean are there other types of mana nodes? In my game (v1.05) I’m currently controlling 2 air nodes, 1 earth node, 2 water nodes, and 8 fire nodes. So while my game certainly has a preponderance of fire nodes, there are other nodes on my map.

3637

Well I went ahead and got it yesterday, I have faith in stardock. Now if I can just stop playing LOL I could start this up :)

3638

And what a honest and insightful review it is. Nice work, Tom.

3639

I’m having a good time with it as well, I bought Galciv 1, 2 and all expansions and never played more than a game or 2 of each. Just couldn’t get into them. I’m really enjoying elemental though - even with all the warts. I think it’s just different enough from other “civ” clones to keep me coming back.

I also see tons of modding potential here - which I hope didn’t get killed by the bad launch. People won’t make mods for a game that sold poorly.

3640

One of the best reviews I’ve read for any game. It was like a tough conversation with a good friend. Nice work, Tom!

-Scott-