Elemental all-purpose thread

mkozlows · 2010-09-02T15:31:00.000Z

The more posts I read from the people banned from Stardock’s forums, the more convinced I become that Stardock’s forum admins are doing an excellent job of banning idiots and trolls.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T15:32:48.000Z

That’s a little harsh. There are people with genuine reasons to complain about their treatment. Only The Punch Line has come across as an idiot.

Robert_Sharp · 2010-09-02T15:33:03.000Z

Mordrak:

That’s not necessarily true. Brad may not be an idiot, but he may have been hoping the early buzz would carry the game until they could get it in better shape. Were they aware of the full extent of the technical problems? Probably not, though one wonders how they could not be aware of problems like the game blowing up on ATI cards.

Absolutely. But your take on it is very different from what Punch Line is suggesting (and what I was responding to). Incompetence/mistakes can happen to anyone. He may even have misjudged things. I’m saying there is no way he intentionally created this particular situation. That would be the stupid thing.

KevinC · 2010-09-02T15:33:29.000Z

dbd1963:

I keep checking this thread to see if the patch that was aimed at yesterday might come out today, but no word on that I guess? I’m holding off playing again until that one comes out. (Elemental and Impulse is on my other computer.)

You’re wanting the other thread.

ckessel · 2010-09-02T15:35:21.000Z

Blackadar:

Unless they do shut up shop on Elemental, I guarantee you that releasing this under-baked has cost them money both in the short-term and the long-term. `

Very questionable. A big chunk of the ultimate buyers will be retail shelf buyers (Brad’s gone on record saying that only about 1/3rd of their sales are digital), most of which will probably be well after the current moment in time. Very few of those are going to play without the immediate patch. That means the bulk of the customers aren’t going to see the under-baked release, but a more reasonable release.

I think Stardock stumbled badly on the release, but I’m not sure that it’s actually a money loser vs. what would have happened had they missed the retail shelves for the holiday season.

Bill_and_Belinda_Gat · 2010-09-02T15:35:25.000Z

any new reviews or extended passages from destiny’s embers spotted?

TimJames · 2010-09-02T15:35:49.000Z

Mordrak:

I’ve worked for tenacious and ruthless small business owners.

I can imagine. Your loathing and prejudice is loud and clear each time the subject comes up. Still: KISS.

The_Punch_Line · 2010-09-02T15:38:07.000Z

Robert Sharp:

What? They’ll still be paying those developers. But now they’ll be paying them to fix a game that is losing sales by bad word of mouth rather than make a game that would sell more copies.

How many more copies? Enough to pay for six months of development? They forecasted the answer was no, so they shipped. Like I said, this happens, everybody knows this happens, it’s just that some people can’t believe it happened here. I don’t know what evidence would be the smoking gun to you, if major review outlets not getting gold code doesn’t register as a clear indicator.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T15:40:09.000Z

ckessel:

Very questionable. A big chunk of the ultimate buyers will be retail shelf buyers (Brad’s gone on record saying that only about 1/3rd of their sales are digital), most of which will probably be well after the current moment in time. Very few of those are going to play without the immediate patch. That means the bulk of the customers aren’t going to see the under-baked release, but a more reasonable release.

There is no patch that makes the game good. It’s still a complete mess.

Mordrak · 2010-09-02T15:41:21.000Z

Tim James:

I can imagine. Your loathing and prejudice is loud and clear each time the subject comes up. Still: KISS.

I’m not prejudiced against small businesses. I’m willing to shop at them as much as larger business. I’m just sick and tired of stupid myths being built up around them as if somehow, they are the relative saints of our economy.

“Aww, shucks, that’s just a small business owner. They just make honest mistakes and I prefer supporting the little guys!”

TimJames · 2010-09-02T15:46:16.000Z

Mordrak:

I’m not prejudiced against small businesses. I’m willing to shop at them as much as larger business. I’m just sick and tired of stupid myths being built up around them as if somehow, they are the relative saints of our economy.

“Aww, shucks, that’s just a small business owner. They just make honest mistakes and I prefer supporting the small guys!”

Let’s team up. I’ll take up the fight against your myth, and you can take up the one that assumes they all have teams of analysts looking to dump bad product on the market because they ran the numbers and to hell with the company they have built up over 20 years.

I’m pretty sure everyone is ganging up on The Punch Line, so I’ll stop worrying about it.

The_Punch_Line · 2010-09-02T15:48:24.000Z

Tim James:

the one that assumes they all have teams of analysts looking to dump bad product on the market because they ran the numbers and to hell with the company they have built up over 20 years.

Like I said, it appears to be halfway working, so tada.

Matt_Perkins · 2010-09-02T15:52:42.000Z

I’m not with Punch Line in that this has all been some strategy. I work in the software industry, I’ve shipped products, both good and bad. Not games mind you, but a product released to bad press is a product released to bad press (been there…it’s NOT fun).

Here’s what I imagine happened. If the two windows (now or Feb of next year) theory is true, as it seems to be according to word of mouth here, then we have the following scenerio:

Stardock released a game they knew wasn’t all the way done. When that went even more poorly then they realized (I think that part is true, they didn’t realize how poorly the launch would go in the media and with their customers), they first reacted with Don’t Buy Our Game™ silliness, and now we have the spin, We Loved It Too Much™.

I think that Brad’s post is a mix of honesty and yes, spin (maybe cover-up to damning of a word). Sure, the release went bad, but Stardock can’t, or isn’t willing, to admit that they released an unfinished product purely because the window was now or six months from now (six months of development cost is a LOT, no matter how big your team is).

All of that aside, I hope the best for Brad and Stardock. I have no vendetta against him. I think he’s now in a bed of his own making by pushing the Gamers Bill of Rights and then breaking it with the very next release. I don’t think he realized how much that could harm him long term…

Mordrak · 2010-09-02T15:55:05.000Z

Tim James:

Let’s team up. I’ll take up the fight against your myth, and you can take up the one that assumes they all have teams of analysts looking to dump bad product on the market because they ran the numbers and to hell with the company they have built up over 20 years.

I’m pretty sure everyone is ganging up on The Punch Line, so I’ll stop worrying about it.

Again, even in how you phrase this, you’re still buying into the myth, unless The Punch Line actually used the words “team of analysts.” You don’t need a team of analysts to run the numbers or make those kind of decisions.

Did Brad knowingly dump a bad product without considering the impact on his company’s reputation? Probably not. Did he dump a product he knew was less than ready, but hoped PR and their indie status could weather it? That’s certainly not in the realm of outlandish impossibility that you seem to want to make it.

You also should understand that Stardock’s bread and butter isn’t games (or wasn’t) but rather the applications (Windows UI apps), so Brad may be more willing to take more risks on the games side. You really think most of his apps customers care or even know about Elemental? You should think about that before trotting out its 20 year history and reputation as a defense for some of his more dubious claims about believing the game being ready for release or that he was just blinded by love for his game.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T15:55:24.000Z

Does the “We Love It Too Much” bit even matter? Brad has admitted that Stardock released a piece of shit and that seriously drastic action is required. That’s the news, surely.

The_Punch_Line · 2010-09-02T15:58:38.000Z

JM:

That’s the news, surely.

That’s what he wants the news to be.

John_Many_Jars · 2010-09-02T15:59:20.000Z

Bill and Belinda Gates:

any new reviews or extended passages from destiny’s embers spotted?

I thought her name was Melinda.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T15:59:53.000Z

The Punch Line:

That’s what he wants the news to be.

That doesn’t even make any fucking sense.

Telefrog · 2010-09-02T16:00:53.000Z

JM:

That doesn’t even make any fucking sense.

Why are you arguing with this guy? He’s a frigging punch line to a joke no one told.

Mordrak · 2010-09-02T16:01:44.000Z

Matt Perkins:

Stardock released a game they knew wasn’t all the way done. When that went even more poorly then they realized (I think that part is true, they didn’t realize how poorly the launch would go in the media and with their customers), they first reacted with Don’t Buy Our Game™ silliness, and now we have the spin, We Loved It Too Much™.

I think that Brad’s post is a mix of honesty and yes, spin (maybe cover-up to damning of a word). Sure, the release went bad, but Stardock can’t, or isn’t willing, to admit that they released an unfinished product purely because the window was now or six months from now (six months of development cost is a LOT, no matter how big your team is).

Up vote on this, I guess as the kids say. This seems like the most reasonable interpretation so far.