Elemental all-purpose thread

kerzain · 2010-09-02T17:56:44.000Z

JM:

Yeah, you’re right. It seems there is massive confusion over what the problem with the game actually is - Brad’s making MASSIVE FAIL! comments and referencing reviews but uh not actually saying what he thinks.

I’m hoping he’ll get into specifics when he’s back in town from his vacation from the station. I have an idea his idea’s will be much different than my own, what I’d really want is MoM2 and AoW 3), but I would certainly settle for the promises that sold me in the first place.

Mark_Asher · 2010-09-02T17:57:56.000Z

JM:

Mark, I wasn’t out for blood. I was actually defending Stardock (slightly, at least) in that post. It was a genuine question because I hadn’t seen any facts regarding it, and there had been some assumptions made by other posters. Tom cleared it up for us.

Yeah, I was replying to you about something else you wrote. I wasn’t herding you in with the usual suspects.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T17:59:07.000Z

kerzain:

I’m hoping he’ll get into specifics when he’s back in town from his vacation from the station. I have an idea his idea’s will be much different than my own, what I’d really want is MoM2 and AoW 3), but I would certainly settle for the promises that sold me in the first place.

Yeah. Quoting Brad’s latest response to me, as it gives more info:

Brad:

(bear in mind reading this forum right now is like reading off a 56k modem right now so my responses are based on reading pieces).

I don’t think Elemental’s shortcomings can be fixed with tweaks or small patches. I think there are core game mechanics and AI that will have to be revisited. I think there are things that would normally be reserved for sequels that will have to be put in.

I think I mentioned this earlier but we employ multiple former editors of major review sites who were part of the process. When you’re working a long time on a project it’s easy to get way way way too close to it and soon, its foibles and flaws become simply part of the fabric.

When I get home, with the benefit of being away for a bit, I’ll be able to outline some specific and in hindsight, obvious game mechanic things that will need to be addressed for Elemental to begin to reach its potential.

As an AI coder, the biggest disappointment to me is that I allowed the design to allow so many N^2 variables (I’ll talk about this later). So don’t think i’m thinking that we can just tweak around the edges to make Elemental what it needs to be. That would be just another version of denial of the problem – as if we could just tweak it and suddenly it goes from a 3 out of 5 to a 5 out of 5 and no, that’s not the case. Not even close.

The upcoming version they’re working on, v1.07 is still about working on all the crazy compatibility issues that our engine has to deal with (that deserves a separate discussion but I’ve been looking at the check-ins and they’re depressing to me. I see a lot of “Fix allocation that causes a crash on nVidia driver 1/10/2010” type stuff which makes me wince).

The kinds of changes Elemental will require to meet is potential are pretty big things IMO. Things that we (and myself in particular) were just blind to. Let me give you a couple of concrete examples so you can see what I’m getting at (and this post BETTER post, this is like being back in 1994): My friend Mark Asher on a post on a forum talked about how boring our spells were. I took that to be about the spell names. But it wasn’t just the spell names, it was about the spells themselves and how they worked. The way resources are managed and handled is very limiting when it comes to the way the AI has to deal with them (N^2 variables).

Anyway, the point is, we fell in love with a vision of the game that was largely in our minds rather than in reality. The difference here is that Stardock has the luxury of being able to address it. Even if Elemental didn’t sell a single new copy, we would still be able to address it.

I truly wish I could ascribe Elemental’s launch to cynical greed or something. Cynical greed beats out pathetic incompetence any day.

frank austin 1, JM 0 :<

TimJames · 2010-09-02T18:05:23.000Z

I’ve been allowing a few too many N^2 variables in my marriage lately.

Teiman · 2010-09-02T18:08:14.000Z

humm… what.

kerzain · 2010-09-02T18:10:40.000Z

Teiman:

He want to be the lightning rod, to avoid getting his company any damage.
Hes is drawing a target in his back, and making everyone shot at him, and saving SD of any blame, but this “groupthink”.

Has anyone (on any of the forums Brad visits) ever been able to separate the two (the man, the company) as separate entities anyway? I don’t know of anyone who trusts only one but not the other.

Sarkus · 2010-09-02T18:10:50.000Z

It’s getting pretty crazy how many QT3 references I’m seeing over there in the official statements. ;-) It’s almost like they are paying more attention to this thread then they are to their official forums. Though that may not be a bad idea given the typical fanboy reactions over there. On the other hand, that UI post/thread the one guy did over there was unbelievably awesome in terms of his analysis and suggestions, IMHO.

Mordrak · 2010-09-02T18:12:26.000Z

vyshka:

part 2: http://forums.elementalgame.com/394855/page/4/#2753375

Some comments lead me to believe he’s still suffering from blindness, or at least some blurry vision, but overall, he’s right in one point. For those that want to stick around for Elemental or watch it, what’s most important is what happens from here.

As some suggested, the engine may be unpatchable, but let’s hope that’s not the case.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T18:12:59.000Z

One of the early criticism threads over there was absolutely spot-on and very well laid out, so it’s not all fanboy/hater back-and-forth. There are a bunch of idiots banging the drums, though.
I think the reaction to Brad’s post on here probably made him go back and re-read posts from Ben Sones, both Jasons, etc.

Tyjenks · 2010-09-02T18:15:08.000Z

There are definitely folks who are very invested in the game and want it to improve in those forums who type out some insanely helpful posts and did throughout the Beta testing. Probably harder to weed through over there, but certainly worth it for Stardockians I would think.

FWIW, I think that is a pretty big admission so soon after a game’s release.

kerzain · 2010-09-02T18:17:01.000Z

I have a feeling the game will be release ready about this time next year. What to do in the mean time?

jfletch · 2010-09-02T18:19:57.000Z

Well, no refund for me. I got my box in the mail today. Hopefully by early 2011, when I get a new computer, it will be in good shape.

Dave_Weinstein · 2010-09-02T18:20:38.000Z

I got my box in the mail, and still got a refund for all but the $10 which was the cost for the box/shipping.

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-02T18:25:03.000Z

The lighter side of this wistfully reminds of my difficulties with putting together a game: so many awesome ideas, such raw drive, and so little ability to manage it all. To nobody’s surprise here, I tearfully gave up the field and nowadays my deepest delving into the realms of coding involve making a mod here or there. Still, I can’t help but feel a bit of a kinship for Brad as he’s going through this. If given a huge budget and his immense amount of talent that I only dream of possessing, there but for the grace of God go I.

On the other hand, it sucks as a consumer. I bought the limited edition and was looking forward to playing what I hoped would be a fantastic game. I haven’t started it back up since making sure that it ran okay on my PC at release (it did, just fine). My free time isn’t such that I had several hours to devote to it so I figured it would wait until the weekend after release.

Then came the horrors, the angst, the frustration, the accusations, the bans, the idiocy, and (finally) the dinosaurs. After reading about everything going on, I decided to click on some other desktop shortcuts for the time being (ironically organized by Fences).

I still hope to come back to it and expect it to be a great game - I guess I’m one of those core audience people who sticks around regardless, but it’s not really Brad that makes me do so. Rather, it’s the vision or dream that I actually connect with. I guess that’s also why I like a lot of against the odds games (which Elemental isn’t, btw: the odds were for it) - sometimes they’re so raw, so stripped of polish that you’re left with little but the pure design nakedly, feebly trying to stand up.

I root for the underdog by my very nature, and Elemental has unwittingly stumbled its way to that category despite every opportunity to be otherwise. Some development studios can pull games out of tailspins, while others can’t. It remains to be seen whether Elemental will fly or crash and burn. Although I don’t begrudge those who have moved on, I think it’s worth sticking with the game to find out.

Raife · 2010-09-02T18:26:45.000Z

kerzain:

I have a feeling the game will be release ready about this time next year. What to do in the mean time?

Buy a pony and teach it to eat cats.

Tyjenks · 2010-09-02T18:29:53.000Z

Raife:

Buy a pony and teach it to eat cats.

Raife, your posts are like reading Flower’s posts only without all the heavy reading (in a good way, mind you). With my attention span and tiredness of brain at day’s end, it is welcome. ;)

DaleKent · 2010-09-02T18:43:46.000Z

Mark Asher:

Dale, do you have to drag Stardock forum matters into this one? Let it go. You’ll be happier.

Maybe so, but I won’t let being personally insulted by the CEO of the company that asked for my beta feedback just be forgotten about. I want my money back, in full.

Sarkus:

I agree. I understand his frustration, but he’d be better off at this point sending Brad an email then complaining about it here. While Brad has a history of reading this forum, I doubt he’ll ever have the time to catch up to the dozens and dozens of pages added in this thread since his last visit more then a week ago.

Brad has ignored all my communications with him thus far. I thank kryo for being so helpful to now.

My point of posting here has been to warn others to be wary what you read there. With a number of critical beta testers banned from posting, it appeared he was filling his forum with back-patting sycophants. I hope his “eye opening revelation” means a change for the future.

JM1 · 2010-09-02T18:46:19.000Z

Brad’s technically on holiday. I’m sure IslandDog can help you out. Go on, ID… for the sake of this thread and our sanity :P

DaleKent · 2010-09-02T18:47:22.000Z

JM:

Brad’s technically on holiday. I’m sure IslandDog can help you out. Go on, ID… for the sake of this thread and our sanity :P

Yeah he ignored me to. :p

Coreander · 2010-09-02T18:48:41.000Z

I registered just because of this thread. I like it.

I may actually buy the game, once some of these things get straightened out. Some of the stuff mentioned sounds really interesting and deserving of a proper implementation.