Elemental all-purpose thread

John_Reynolds · 2010-09-05T10:24:47.000Z

frank austin:

So which is it, a conscious decision to hit a ship window or blind adoration for the product?

My very first thought too after reading that quote.

frank_austin · 2010-09-05T10:26:51.000Z

dbd1963:

I suppose it could have been both – the did not truly know how many problems were left to fix because they had fooled themselves, therefore they thought they would escape the early release more easily than was the case.

I disagree. I think that statement is in direct conflict with what Brad says.

We were in a bind, and chose the lesser evil – to release on time and then work like the dickens to get the game to the state we and the players want…

vs.

I’ve read the reviews as much as possible given my hideous internet access up here and I agree with them. We just didn’t see what they were talking about. We thought any complaints would be about polish points or something.

They released in a state they didn’t want, but they didn’t see it coming?

Damien_Neil · 2010-09-05T10:27:45.000Z

MarinusWA:

First is the stinginess with the refunds. Stardock releases a buggy game and there is a whole shitstorm going on around it. You can’t convince me that Stardock isn’t aware what a massive PR disaster this whole thing is yet why add fuel to the fire by refusing (full) refunds at a time like this? Granted, Stardock customer service wasn’t known to be very good to begin with so this could merely be an extension of that.

It’s deeply unfair to Stardock to refer to their refund policy as “stingy”. How many publishers have any refund policy at all?

dbd1963 · 2010-09-05T10:29:05.000Z

frank austin:

I disagree. I think that statement is in direct conflict with what Brad says.

vs.

They released in a state they didn’t want, but they didn’t see it coming?

I’m not suggesting that nobody lied afterward…

frank_austin · 2010-09-05T10:30:08.000Z

Damien Neil:

It’s deeply unfair to Stardock to refer to their refund policy as “stingy”. How many publishers have any refund policy at all?

It may not be stingy, but it’s not exactly solid, either. Their CS reps flat out lie to people about their capability to do refunds (Credit card companies do, in fact, allow you to process returns past 90 days). In this thread alone you can find three or four different types of return incidents that paint a pretty clear picture that Stardock makes up their return policy as they go, giving different customers wildly different experiences with it.

kerzain · 2010-09-05T10:31:47.000Z

If you go to the My Games section of that blog, you’ll see the author has addressed the Populous question.

Leinad · 2010-09-05T10:34:13.000Z

So releasing an unfinished game is nowadays the lesser evil?

Seems like they hoped to get away with it and weren’t prepared for such bad feedback.
Buttom line here is that developers think its ok to release a game which is obviously far from being finished.
Guess there is no ethics left in the games industry.

strategy · 2010-09-05T10:36:10.000Z

espressojim:

Funny, I was wait and see on Elemental because of Demigod. People will remember, especially when it’s two failed launches in a row.

Agreed. The “preorder game months ahead of release” strategy is certainly not going to work as well for them in future. That requires more than goodwill - it also requires trust, and that will take a lot of time to rebuild.

Cubit · 2010-09-05T10:36:57.000Z

frank austin:

So which is it, a conscious decision to hit a ship window or blind adoration for the product?

Frank makes good points here. It doesn’t add up.

vyshka · 2010-09-05T10:41:02.000Z

Another quote from that blog post suggests that they had an idea of it’s state:

How can they test this game and not encounter the problems that were present?

And now you have raised my ire. As a former tester I can tell you that testers find bugs; they do not fix them. If bugs exist in a final product they are not the fault of the testers; they are the fault of the developers. Of course they saw the issues. They are not idiots, and I resent your suggestion that they are.

dbd1963 · 2010-09-05T10:41:03.000Z

Leinad:

So releasing an unfinished game is nowadays the lesser evil?

Seems like they hoped to get away with it and weren’t prepared for such bad feedback.
Buttom line here is that developers think its ok to release a game which is obviously far from being finished.
Guess there is no ethics left in the games industry.

That’s what I think happened. But there may be business considerations involved that we don’t understand. The blog guy mentions “not having the clout” to release during Christmas and February being somehow too late – that’s all about money, right?

I’m not trying to defend them, just putting on my sleuthing hat…

dbd1963 · 2010-09-05T10:43:30.000Z

Cory:

Frank makes good points here. It doesn’t add up.

To me it adds up like this: 1. They have some money reason for wanting an earlier release. 2. They know the game is not ready, 3. but have fooled themelves into thinking it’s a lot more ready than it really is.

Afterward, BW tells you about 3, and conveniently elides 1 and 2.

strategy · 2010-09-05T10:46:13.000Z

This was an interesting take.

frank_austin · 2010-09-05T10:47:28.000Z

I read that, strategy, and this paragraph really nails it:

It’s nice to see a developer taking a humble approach in talking about their mistakes, but don’t be taken in by this bullshit, a pleasant lie is still a lie. Real spine would have been admitting to being in a difficult spot, financially, and warning fans that what they were getting in the box was unfinished but would be updated, before they paid. The only people I feel sorry for are all the guys who’ve been laid off from Stardock. They didn’t deserve to pay the price for this, but business is business, and it’s ugly.

Emphasis mine.

Phydeaux · 2010-09-05T10:52:43.000Z

dbd1963 · 2010-09-05T10:57:10.000Z

frank austin:

I read that, strategy, and this paragraph really nails it:

Emphasis mine.

I feel like we know what happened, how it happened, and what it means about BW and Stardock. I still don’t feel like stoning the guy myself – I’ve never run a business, and, as a recovering narcissist myself (musician), I can sympathize with his willful blindness.

But I can also understand others being upset since he did write that manifesto about how consumers should be treated, and it obviously did not impact his own decision making in this case. So he deserves his flames.

Still, I like what is there in Elemental, and I hope it will grow into a great game.

Cubit · 2010-09-05T11:03:38.000Z

strategy:

This was an interesting take.

Thanks for posting this.

DrCrypt · 2010-09-05T11:12:44.000Z

strategy:

Agreed. The “preorder game months ahead of release” strategy is certainly not going to work as well for them in future. That requires more than goodwill - it also requires trust, and that will take a lot of time to rebuild.

I have no feelings about Elemental at all: I haven’t played it, and am absolutely ambivalent towards Stardock. That all said, I not only think you’re right, but seeing as how much of the practical finances of Stardock’s games business seems to have been based around getting customers to finance the development of a game by pre-ordering it, I honestly wonder if this won’t be the end of Stardock as a games developer. You’d have to be a fool to pre-order Stardock’s next game given not only Elemental’s state at launch, but Wardell’s later mea culpa VALIDATING all the negative reports… especially given the ambiguity I’m reading here about the company’s returns policy. It seems like Stardock’s game development business was largely run on good will and trust, and without it, they are simply out of currency.

Jason_Lutes · 2010-09-05T11:13:18.000Z

dbd1963:

I feel like we know what happened, how it happened, and what it means about BW and Stardock. I still don’t feel like stoning the guy myself – I’ve never run a business, and, as a recovering narcissist myself (musician), I can sympathize with his willful blindness.

If your willful blindness negatively impacts thousands of paying customers, and forces a dozen people to lose their jobs, guess what? You deserve no sympathy.

dbd1963 · 2010-09-05T11:24:18.000Z

Jason Lutes:

If your willful blindness negatively impacts thousands of paying customers, and forces a dozen people to lose their jobs, guess what? You deserve no sympathy.

The paying customers can be “made whole” as they say. It looks like Stardock means to do that.

As for the employees – I mentioned that I was a musician. I write songs, but my songs suck. Really, really suck. I worked for a guy whose songs didn’t suck. He was a total narcissist. He once said to me about a rehearsal I couldn’t make because my car broke down, about 90 miles away – “gee, I hate to tell you to rent a car…” This without any gigs on the calendar. It seemed life or death to him, though.

He was difficult to work with. Yet, without him, there is no band. I suspect something like that is true at Stardock. Without Wardell, with all his flaws, those jobs never existed. So it’s hard for me to come right out and say “Damn him to hell!” I prefer a milder smack upside the head, in hopes that he really understands what a hole he dug, and tries to make it right again.