Elemental all-purpose thread

[JM1]

Brad obviously gets a lot of deserved flak for his handling of this affair. However, isn’t it a little strange that no-one else in the company is apparently deserving of criticism? Do the other developers not have some culpability in this?

[Cubit]

Brad obviously gets a lot of deserved flak for his handling of this affair. However, isn’t it a little strange that no-one else in the company is apparently deserving of criticism? Do the other developers not have some culpability in this?

Maybe, but we’ll never know. Everything that goes through Stardock goes through Brad. The buck stops with him. What happened with Elemental is ultimately his responsibility.

[JM1]

Yes, but that also ignores that a lot of people worked on Elemental and it’s clear that they didn’t produce something good.

This isn’t a defence of Brad.

[Alstein]

Three moves Ahead - with Brad Wardell

Something so basic as a city manager screen, which should be in the 1.00 version, will be included in the third post-release update (or maybe the 4th). It speaks for itself.

Most companies don’t give you three post-release updates. You’re getting 3 in 3 weeks with Stardock. Not a fair criticism to use quantity of updates when Stardock puts out updates rapidly.

That’s fine Alstein, but that also shows that you have some sort of emotional investment with Stardock. You seem to feel somewhat obligated to fund the development of the game - hence your “free rider” comment. I sincerely wonder if you feel like that with any other publisher. Personally, I don’t feel that way about any publisher. I’m not an investor, I’m a customer. As much as I like Firaxis games (been playing Sid Meier’s stuff since the 80s), I don’t feel in any way that I need to fund their development. I’m not suggesting that your emotional ties to Stardock are in any way wrong, but I think most customers aren’t going to be as forgiving since they don’t have that same emotional attachment. Simply put, yours is not typical buying behavior.

I sincerely dislike anyone that releases a half-baked product to the marketplace with the expectation that they can patch it later. It’s a poor business practice amnd shows disdain for the customer base. Patching a product is usually simply righting a wrong. Now Stardock does have a great track record of patching up their games so you should be able to count on that. That’s a good thing, but it doesn’t excuse the state of the game at launch.

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Since you edited after I quoted you, why would you think that Civ V won’t be adequately supported or all that much fun? Civ IV was supported quite well and you’d find yourself in a small minority if you don’t think it’s one of the best TBS games in the past 10 years (or perhaps of all time). So where’s your basis for thinking that?

Sorry, I tend to edit after I post frequently to get it just right.

I do think Civ IV is excellent- especially with the FFH and Wolfshanze-drerived mods. However, Civ V- I got a real vibe from some of the announcements that Take 2 was calling the shots, and Firaxis was being forced to make DLC and other things instead of improving the game. Also, I got the impression that things were being dumbed down in some areas that I might not like. I plan to wait for the demo on it, then judge.

As for my behavior not being typical, you’re probably right. I tend to show a large amount of loyalty to companies that have done me right though, and Stardock with GC1 and GC2 did me right. I tend to take more of a long-term view, most gamers are instant gratification types- and I think my behavior is a little different. Stardock doesn’t get a black check from me, I’ve been critical of them on several occasions in the past, and they did mess up on Elemental. I just trust them to fix it, given their past history.

[Cubit]

Yes, but that also ignores that a lot of people worked on Elemental and it’s clear that they didn’t produce something good.

Yes, and I’m saying the reasons that they didn’t produce something good lie at the feet of Brad. A project lead makes sure that people are producing good work.

[TurinTur]

Brad obviously gets a lot of deserved flak for his handling of this affair. However, isn’t it a little strange that no-one else in the company is apparently deserving of criticism? Do the other developers not have some culpability in this?

His is the boss. The boss wins more money, but also have the final responsability.

[Sarkus]

Yes, and I’m saying the reasons that they didn’t produce something good lie at the feet of Brad. A project lead makes sure that people are producing good work.

If you listen to the Three Moves Ahead podcast linked above, you will find out that Brad wasn’t the project lead. In fact, he says he didn’t really focus his own work on the game until six months ago or so. That’s not to say that he didn’t have a big impact on how the game came together at the end, of course.

I give Troy a lot of credit for asking a lot of the same questions that have been asked here and elsewhere. He didn’t hold back as far as I can tell, given that his approach is to take Brad at his word. Brad’s responses weren’t necessarily any new news, and I don’t think he needed his PR person there with him, but it was still nice to hear him talk about the whole thing in greater detail.

As for the future of the game, I’m somewhat torn. The game right now still needs a lot of work, but at least for me it’s not technical issues that are hampering it. I guess I’m worried that they might screw up some things that I actually like. For example, the whole mana thing really strikes me an unfortunate development. In the podcast Brad essentially justfies the move to a global mana pool as being necessary to make the AI more competitive. But that shouldnt’ be the only consideration when making a major change to a game system. How about they make an AI that’s better? I hope that we don’t see a pile of changes that are simply driven by simplification for the AI.

[rezaf]

Most companies don’t give you three post-release updates. You’re getting 3 in 3 weeks with Stardock. Not a fair criticism to use quantity of updates when Stardock puts out updates rapidly.

One could also argue that many games don’t need 3 updates to begin with.

Imagine you ship GTA4.
Well, sorry, only one type of car did make it into the release version.
But more will be added later in patches!
Yeah, all cars only drive in their first gear, we’ll implement the other four later. Oh, yes, the reverse gear as well, have no fear.

Etc.

I know, some companies ship incomplete stuff, Paradox comes to mind, but a lot of companies only make very small adjustments and maybe fix rare compatibility issues - and that’s how it should be, imo.

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rezaf

[rhinohelix]

Yes, and I’m saying the reasons that they didn’t produce something good lie at the feet of Brad. A project lead makes sure that people are producing good work.

To echo a lot of others, it sounds like at least part of the problem was that Brad was trying to fill multiple roles in this project. There is a reason why there is a divisive of duties and project managers/leads/producers shouldn’t code.

[Cubit]

To echo a lot of others, it sounds like at least part of the problem was that Brad was trying to fill multiple roles in this project. There is a reason why there is a divisive of duties and project managers/leads/producers shouldn’t code.

Of course.

[JM1]

Yes, and I’m saying the reasons that they didn’t produce something good lie at the feet of Brad. A project lead makes sure that people are producing good work.

Doesn’t that ignore the fact that everyone has different levels of competence at their chosen profession?

Shit, at my last job I did some crap work occasionally and while my boss got it in the neck as a result, it was certainly as much my fault as his. Just not convinced about the complete outpouring of sympathy for people who’ve shipped a shoddy product.

Frankly we don’t know either way, so I’m likely being too harsh.

[Sarkus]

One could also argue that many games don’t need 3 updates to begin with.

Imagine you ship GTA4.
Well, sorry, only one type of car did make it into the release version.
But more will be added later in patches!
Yeah, all cars only drive in their first gear, we’ll implement the other four later. Oh, yes, the reverse gear as well, have no fear.

Etc.

I know, some companies ship incomplete stuff, Paradox comes to mind, but a lot of companies only make very small adjustments and maybe fix rare compatibility issues - and that’s how it should be, imo.

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rezaf

I don’t think anyone disagrees with you that it should be that way. On the other hand, given the state Elemental was released in, it’s actually good that we’ve already had this many patches, with more to come. Under the circumstances, the more patches the better until the game gets to where it should be.

[Telefrog]

Why does it matter? Brad takes full responsibility in his statements.

[Alstein]

One could also argue that many games don’t need 3 updates to begin with.

Imagine you ship GTA4.
Well, sorry, only one type of car did make it into the release version.
But more will be added later in patches!
Yeah, all cars only drive in their first gear, we’ll implement the other four later. Oh, yes, the reverse gear as well, have no fear.

Etc.

I know, some companies ship incomplete stuff, Paradox comes to mind, but a lot of companies only make very small adjustments and maybe fix rare compatibility issues - and that’s how it should be, imo.

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rezaf

I’d rather have 1 big patch divided into 3 small patches- get the improvements bit by bit, then 1 big patch.

I just don’t think it’s fair to punish a company for patching rapidly.

[rezaf]

I’d rather have 1 big patch divided into 3 small patches- get the improvements bit by bit, then 1 big patch.

I just don’t think it’s fair to punish a company for patching rapidly.

Oh, with that I can agree.

It’s just that it’d be nice if those patches improved the game from 95% to 100% completion, not from 65% to 100%.
5 patches in quick succession would still only take the 65% to 70%…

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rezaf

[arakyd]

But the one thing that really killed [GalCiv2] for me was the impenetrable game mechanics behind the economy. I never really grasped what the effects of various actions were, and the remainder of the game didn’t have enough appeal to make me fight through the mechanics.

Bingo. The economy is very unintuitive, explained extremely poorly by the game UI and tutorials, and still very confusing even after giving the manual a careful read. In fact, the economy is so confusing that it’s likely the developers did not understand it themselves. Why do I say this? Because once you figure out how it really works, it becomes almost trivial to out-produce the AI by enormous margins, making the game very easy to beat unless you crank the difficulty up as high as it can go (letting the AI “cheat” by giving it huge income bonuses). The expansions made major changes to the way the economy worked, but they never fixed the core problem.

Elemental has exactly the same issue with mechanics that are both very poorly explained and completely broken (as well as incompetent AI). And no, if GalCiv2 is any indication, there’s no reason to believe that they will ever be fixed, even years later, even after paid expansions. The game will get better, but I don’t see any reason to think it will ever be good.

People can try to read Brad’s mind and weigh his character all day long, but who cares? The games can and should speak for themselves. Brad is irrelevant.

[Dan_Theman]

So we’re all in agreement on one thing: we want the game at 100% as soon as possible.

Good.

Some of us (including Brad) care that a case is made for it being Brad’s fault, others just want the game at 100% and don’t care whose fault it was.

Okay, fine.

Is there really anything left to be said that hasn’t been in the last 166 pages? Can the dinosaurs finally be left alone to graze, now?

[tylertoo]

Maybe this has already been noted, but Brad has plenty to say in the new Flash of Steel podcastElemental post-mortem.

[rhinohelix]

Is there really anything left to be said that hasn’t been in the last 166 pages? Can the dinosaurs finally be left alone to graze, now?

[Coreander]

Yeah, I don’t see any entertainment value in this thread at all. It’s just sad.

Discovering that a company has wilfully shipped a defective product and the CEO pretends otherwise until dragged kicking and screaming to the point where he has to admit facts that he should have been up-front with from the beginning - is sad?

No, I don’t agree. It is necessary and good, and I for one am glad of it (as is my wallet).